Episode 11: What International Students Need to Know About Applying to College in the U.S.

Episode 11 Transcript

• Episode 11 Transcript

  [00:00:07] BW: Welcome back to College Admissions Insider, where we chat with real college admissions counselors about every detail of the college search process. I’m Bryan Wendell from Bucknell University.

  [00:00:16] BT: And I’m Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell University. Whether you're just starting to explore college options or are triple checking your application materials, this is the podcast for you. We break down a different topic every single episode and we do it in 30 minutes or less.

  [00:00:30] BW: That's right. Now, Brooke, we've been reviewing the listener stats for College Admissions Insider, and we actually noticed something pretty cool: A lot of you out there are tuning in from countries outside the United States. And if that's you, welcome.

  [00:00:44] BT: Today's episode is all about the unique and sometimes complicated journey that international students must take if they want to apply to and attend a college in the United States.

  [00:00:54] BW: And if you're one of our international listeners, we are really glad you're here. If you're listening from the U.S., we welcome you as well. In addition to sharing advice for international students in this episode, we're also going to help families living in the U.S. understand what colleges are doing to make international students feel more welcome and how you can help.

  [00:01:13] BT: To make this discussion possible, we've brought in an in-house expert. Brett Basom is Bucknell's associate director of international recruitment. He's been in college admissions for 30 years and at Bucknell for three years. In addition to meeting with students from all around the world, Brett reviews every application to Bucknell from an international student or an American student living overseas. Welcome to the podcast, Brett.

  [00:01:34] BB: Thanks, Brooke. It's great to be here. It's also exciting to hear that we have so many listeners from outside of the U.S. So a special welcome to them, along with anyone inside the U.S. who has an interest in supporting our international students.

  [00:01:46] BW: Absolutely. Now, Brett, when I first met you I always thought you had a really cool job. And I’m interested, what's unique about working in international admissions for school in the U.S.? And are you traveling during non-COVID times, of course? Are you up at all hours, or on Zoom, or on the phone with students living in another time zone? Kind of paint a picture of what that's like.

  [00:02:11] BB: Well, as the saying goes, it's always five o'clock somewhere. But I think more appropriately in my case, it's always eight o'clock in the morning somewhere, and the world's just waking up and getting started with their school and business days. So, yes, emails are flying in at all hours of the day and nights. This year in particular, we've been up late at night. Had a lot of early mornings doing Zoom sessions and doing virtual visits. So yeah, it's been a very interesting year.

  But yeah, during non-COVID times I do travel to a lot of different countries. Typically, about two months in the fall I’ll be outside of the U.S., and then another one or two months in the spring as well. So, typically, going to visit schools or attending college fairs abroad. And to see students in their home environments, and to kind of understand their background and where they come from, it's really cool and it's also very helpful in understanding their applications when they apply to Bucknell.

  But the travel is definitely one of the things that I’m missing this year. But at the same time, I can honestly say I don't miss being away from home for weeks on end. I don't miss the long flights and dealing with jet lag and different time zones. But yeah, it's all good.

  [00:03:17] BT: Exciting and rewarding, but definitely a little bit demanding there. But since you're such a globetrotter, can you give us a sense of what high schools look like in other countries and how different educational systems affect the college admissions process?

  [00:03:30] BB: Yeah, it's interesting. There's certainly a wide variety of educational curriculums around the world. Sometimes I’ll go to a high school and I’ll feel like I’m at a suburban high school in L.A. or Long Island. But then other times, I’ll go to very remote schools maybe on a mountaintop or something. So it's very, very interesting.

  When I first started doing college admissions someone once told me that there were basically three types of educational curriculums out there. So one that's based on the U.S. system, one on the British and one on the French, and everything else out there is some kind of derivation of one of them. So that's not totally true, but it does kind of help put things in perspective. So when we're evaluating applications, the bottom line is that we're looking for students who have been successful in their secondary education and are well prepared for university study, whether that's in their home country or here in the U.S.

  But there are certainly some challenges that we see that international students face. For example, just obtaining a high school transcript — which is the best predictor of how someone will do at the university level — it can mean different things in different countries. Some high schools around the world will produce their own internal transcripts and some don't. Some will rely on what are called external exams that might be nationally based or regionally based. But, basically, what we're looking for is their academic records from the last four years of secondary school.

  Another challenge is that a lot of schools don't have the concept that we have here in the U.S. of a guidance counselor or a college counselor. So, in essence, there's no one at their high school to help them through the college admission process. So they need to either rely on themselves or to seek outside help. Also, sometimes the teachers at their school may not speak English, and so they're not able to write letters of recommendation in English. So the students need to find a translator.
  And, of course, there's also financial challenges that here in the U.S. that we don't think about a lot of times. International students typically don't have the same resources for financial aid that we in the U.S. have. And in order to obtain a student visa, students from outside of the U.S. have to show that they'll have the financial support while they're in the U.S. And so that support can come from their family, but it can also come from a sponsor. It could come from their government or even the college themselves. But as we know, financial aid can be limited at colleges and this can be unfortunately a major hurdle for many international students who want to study in the U.S.

  [00:05:57] BW: So let's talk about standardized tests. Even when Bucknell went test optional — meaning students could choose whether or not to include an SAT or ACT score when applying —international students were still required to submit scores. And during the pandemic, however, that test optional policy was extended to international students. So I really have two questions for you, Brett: Why were international students still required to submit test scores? And should international students still take those standardized tests as a way to give themselves maybe a better chance of getting into a top-tier school like Bucknell?

  [00:06:31] BB: Bryan, that's a great question. So when we look at the many educational curriculums around the world, it's sometimes difficult to tell the quality or the rigor of a particular curriculum. Or sometimes it's difficult to even verify credentials. So having students submit SATs or ACTs are just a way that we use to standardize the process. It's just another tool that we use to compare apples to apples.

  And your second question, should students still take it? Well, the answer is it depends. I think we're at a very interesting point in time right now. Even before the pandemic hit, many institutions were already starting to move towards having test-optional policies. And I think what we're seeing is that the pandemic only accelerated that. And with testing around the world disrupted, I think colleges and universities have had to go test optional in order to have not just international students but also domestic students. So I think it's really going to be interesting to see what happens once this pandemic goes. Will colleges remain test optional or not?

  So what I’m telling students who are interested in applying to Bucknell for 2022 or later is to check back and to see what our policy is. I think a lot's going to depend on what the testing process is like around the world. So we'll certainly update that on our website. And for students who have other top-choice colleges, I would certainly suggest that they do check with those colleges to see what their policies are. And if you're in doubt what to do, and you're looking at highly selective colleges that might require the SAT or the ACT, and you have the opportunity to take it, I would say do so. You can always decide later whether or not to submit the scores to the schools, whether or not they require it.

  And just one other thing, Bryan, while we're talking about standardized tests, let's not forget about English proficiency. So for students whose native language is not English, they typically have to submit some kind of proof of English proficiency. So the old standbys are the TOEFL exam and the IELTS exams. But we're seeing institutions becoming more flexible on how they evaluate English proficiency. So I know, for example at Bucknell, if a student has been in an English speaking curriculum for at least the last three or four years, we will waive the TOEFL or IELTS requirement. Also, some schools, not Bucknell, but I know some schools will look at the SAT reading and writing score. They might look at their English classes if they're an international baccalaureate student. And in other ways just to kind of evaluate their English background.

  Another great change that we've seen this year is that more schools are now accepting the Duolingo English Test, and this is a test that's only been around for a short time but it can be taken at home. There's a relatively quick turnaround, and it's actually quite inexpensive compared to some of the other options out there.

  [00:09:19] BT: Okay, so lots of options for students to hit those requirements on their applications. And another thing students have tons of options for is also extracurriculars. And I would guess that with differences in culture around the world that there are kind of some different extracurriculars that students might be interested in. So are there any unique ones that you've seen on applications? And what are some of the ways for international students to stand out on that part of their application?

  [00:09:42] BB: Yeah, I’ve been around for a long time, so I’ve seen pretty much everything on an application. The usual things that we see of course are athletic involvement, student government, theater, music, religious activities. But we've seen some unusual things. We've seen students who have created inventions and actually have patents. I’ve seen a big increase in the amount of volunteer and service work that students are putting on their applications. There are summer programs out there that students go to. I’ve also seen an increase in something called manufactured activities. So these are activities that there are actually companies out there that will create activities that students can participate just so that they can put it on their college applications or on their resumes. But you know what? We understand that not everyone has access to these things. In fact, extracurricular activities are not even standard in some schools and in some countries. In some ways, it's an American thing that's kind of being exported to other countries. So we understand that students don't always have the access to it.

  So what we're looking for is some kind of sustained commitment or involvement in something. We're just interested in and what kind of talents that a student may have that they might bring to our campus. So in terms of highlighting it, just make sure that you're showcasing what it is that makes you unique, and make sure that you don't ignore the activity sections of the application. You'd be surprised how many people just don't complete the section. And I might read the application, [and] in a different section I might find out, “Hey, they're interested in something else, but they didn't report it. Why not?” If you need more space, you can always attach your resume. There's also platforms out there like ZeeMee which is a platform where you can upload writing samples, pictures, videos. So if there are things you want to submit, that's something that can be attached right to your application. And if nothing else, if there's something that's really, really important to you, and you want us to know about it, perhaps you could think about writing about it in your college application essay.

  [00:11:38] BW: And so something else that goes on the application is the GPA, right? And everyone's focused on getting that as high as they possibly can. But I’m curious — and forgive my ignorance on this — but are other countries using the same kind of 4.0 or in some cases 5.0 scale that you see in U.S. schools, or is there a different scale that you see on these applications?

  [00:12:03] BB: Yeah, not necessarily. I mean, I think a lot of the schools that are based on the U.S. curriculum will use a 4.0 scale or something similar. But you know what's interesting, Bryan, is that even in the U.S., school scales vary from school to school, from state to state. So even for our domestic applicants, we're having to sometimes figure out what does this scale mean in context of that school.

  But around the world there are a lot of different scales. The United Kingdom has a new IGCSE, which is what used to be called their O Levels. That's on a 9-point scale. Vietnam has a 10-point scale. France and the francophone countries that kind of adopted their curriculum use a 20-point scale. The International Baccalaureate, which is a standardized curriculum that's used around the world, has a 7-point scale. So yeah, a lot of different scales out there. But once you start to look at a lot of them, they start to become familiar to you. And there are a lot of tools out there that we can use.

  Typically, a school will send us a profile which will talk about their curriculum. We'll understand the types of courses that are offered at that school, and we can kind of put the student in context to their school. We have conversion charts that we use to convert grades. There are a lot of professional development conferences and workshops that we attend. And you know what? There's a great network of admission people out there that we tap into whenever we have questions. And if all else fails, I’ll actually reach out to a school counselor if I need more information. So, again, when we're making these decisions, what we're looking for are students who have done well in context to their educational system.

  [00:13:36] BT: Yeah, yeah. It sounds like regardless of the different scales, it sounds like you are really using all the resources available to get a really good look at each individual student who is applying. And speaking of getting a good look, something that's been hard in the pandemic for everyone, but especially international students, is being able to come visit a school to get that really in-depth look and see if it might be a good fit. And so what are some of the ways international students can see whether the colleges on their lists are a good fit if they're not able to visit?

  [00:14:05] BB: Yeah. You know what's interesting, Brooke, is that, historically, international students typically do not have the opportunity to visit. Now, some do — some are able to make those visits before they decide. But in most cases, it becomes a leap of faith, that students are making the decision on what college to go to based on what they read in a brochure or what they saw on a website or maybe they heard from a friend or they saw on social media. But this year, what I’m seeing is a real proliferation of virtual opportunities.

  So we as college admission people are trying to replicate what we've done in the past. So we do virtual high school visits where we actually go to the schools to meet with students. We'll do virtual college fairs. And there are a lot of other things that we do to connect with current students. We also open up the opportunities on our campuses for international students, so like the virtual information sessions that we offer. We also have ambassador chats here at Bucknell where students can meet with other students on our campus virtually. We have virtual tours. And the new thing that we're really excited about is our Bison to Bison platform for admitted students. So once a student is offered admission to Bucknell, they're invited to join the platform, and there they can connect with other students at Bucknell, faculty at Bucknell. They can attend sessions to learn about engineering at Bucknell, or what do they need to bring when they come to campus in the fall. So that's something that's really, really exciting.

  So if you look at it in many ways there are actually more opportunities than existed just a year ago. So I tell students, “Make sure you're doing your research.” Take advantage of all the opportunities that Bucknell and other schools are putting out there virtually. And you certainly want to connect with current students and faculty.

  And lastly, for those of you out there who are just starting your college search, there are a lot of good resources out there. There are a lot of websites where you can do searches for colleges. If your school typically sends students to the U.S., they probably have some kind of university counseling office where they have resources that you can use. There are educational consultants out there that specialize in international admissions. And I want to give a big shout out to an organization called EducationUSA. EducationUSA is a network of over 430 advising centers around the world in over 175 countries, and they are sponsored by the U.S. government. They provide information for students who are thinking about studying in the U.S. So they can help you do a college search. They can help you with the application process searching for financial aid. So if you're interested in finding an EducationUSA advising center near you, you can go to their website, which is educationusa.state.gov.

  [00:16:42] BW: And we'll put that link in the show notes as well so people can access it. So I want to switch gears a little bit, and I should preface this by saying that there're thousands of other podcasts that that cover politics, so we don't get into that here fortunately. But I do wonder if you could talk just in a general sense about how the policies of any administration might impact the number of international applicants that a place like Bucknell might receive, and also just the application process in general.

  [00:17:12] BB: Yeah, I think perception means a lot internationally. So, certainly, as a nation we want to be seen as a welcoming and safe destination for international students. And that perception alone can really affect the number of applications and students who enroll. It's great to have a positive immigration policy. It's great to maintain positive relationships with other nations. The ease or the difficulty of obtaining a student visa at an embassy or a consulate, or even the ability to find a meaningful internship related to one's major, these can all have an impact on application numbers. And remember, the U.S., we're in competition with other countries like Canada, the U.K., Australia and a lot of other countries for international students. So it really is important to have a very positive perception.

  But I think the biggest impact this year has been COVID. I mean, just the different travel restrictions and policies that countries have had to implement —it's just been a real challenge for international student mobility. But you know what? When I talk to my colleagues at other institutions, we're all saying the same thing, and we're saying that we want our international students. We value what international students bring to our campuses and communities. And we really can't wait to welcome them back to our campuses once it's safe to do so.

  [00:18:33] BT: Yeah, you mentioned student visas quickly there, Brett, and I’m really specifically curious about that. Can you walk us through what that process looks like? Are admitted international students on their own to kind of figure that out and get that done, or do they work with the college they're going to attend or some other kind of agency organization?

  [00:18:50] BB: Yeah, so they have to work directly with the college that they're going to attend. So every school out there has an office or at least a contact person who will assist the incoming students with the student visa process, because it can be a little bit complicated. So at Bucknell, that resource is our International Student Services. So from the time a student tells us that they're coming to Bucknell, we put them in touch with their International Student Services staff, and they work with them through the student visa process, along with a lot of other things that they'll need to transition to Bucknell.

  So once a student meets our criteria, once they're offered admissions, they show that they have the financial support, then we will issue what's called a form I-20. And, basically, it's a certificate of visa eligibility. So they will take that I-20 form, and they need to schedule an interview. Then they go to an embassy or consulate where they do the interview and, hopefully, are approved for it for the student visa. So we help them through that process but, ultimately, it's up to the student to schedule that interview, and to go to their embassy or consulate to have the interview, and finish up the process.

  [00:19:56] BW: I think one big thing that I’m going to take away from this episode, Brett, is that it's a lot of work to attend a school in the United States. It's certainly worth it, but our international friends who come to a place like Bucknell, they do have to do a lot of work — and not just in the classroom but beyond to be able to make this happen. And so once they get here, once they arrive at their place of higher education, I wonder what the other side looks like. What people like you, and me, and Brooke and everyone else at these schools can do to make sure they feel welcome and supported throughout their college journey?

  [00:20:32] BB: Absolutely, Bryan. I give international students a lot of credit. I mean, think about it just for a minute. They're coming to a different country. They're coming to a different culture, often a different educational system, often sight unseen. They may have never been out of their country, and they're away from their family and friends. In fact, I’ve talked to some students who come here as a first-year student, and they're here for all four years. They don't even go home for four years. Now, typically, most students will go home at least during the summers, but there are some that are unable to do that because of the costs.

  So, really, I think we should do all we can do to welcome them. Take the time to get to know someone. Acknowledge that they are away from home and don't be afraid to talk to someone that you don't know. Ask them how are they doing. And maybe more importantly, actually listen. Have curiosity but be thoughtful about what you're asking.

  For example, it might not be a great idea to ask somebody from Africa if they have giraffes in their backyard — and that's something that's happened. But ask broader questions. What's the food life back home? What's the climate like? How are you adapting? How are you adjusting? Also, you want to be cognizant of our behavior as Americans and with American culture and slang. So a classic example that you may have heard of is just the simple greeting, “How are you?” That’s something that we as Americans say all the time, “How are you, Bryan?” “I’m good. I’m fine,” and we just kind of walk on. But international students will very often take that question literally, “How are you?” “Oh, you want to know how I am? So let's talk.” So they look at that as a cue for interaction. So just be careful about what you say. Be careful about your jargon and your slang.

  And, really, as we're in this new COVID world where we're all wearing masks and we're being socially distanced, that communication, that welcome that we need to give international students is even more important, because just think about coming to another country for the first time and everyone's wearing masks. So, really, I think it's more important than ever.

  And for the international students out there, I think wherever you end up, make that effort. Take advantage of the many opportunities that you're going to have. Meet somebody new. Try something different. Join a new club and break out of your comfort zone, because this is where growth will really occur.

  [00:22:47] BT: Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's all really wonderful advice. And zooming out even a little bit further to look at kind of schools around the nation in general, why is it important for schools like Bucknell and others to expand their reach beyond just U.S. borders and inviting students from different cultures, and languages, and backgrounds all over the world to join their communities?

  [00:23:08] BB: Yeah. The quick and obvious answer is that it adds diversity to our campuses. But when you dig deeper, there are really so many more important reasons. International students really do enrich our classrooms and our communities. They bring a different perspective. They bring a different way of thinking, maybe a different educational background, different ways of doing things. So our classrooms are really enriched when we have those voices from Africa, and South America, and Europe, and the Middle East on our campuses. That's a great thing.

  Another thing is the concept of soft diplomacy. What we're doing in essence is creating goodwill ambassadors. So if our international students come here and have a positive experience, they're going to go home and they're going to say good things about our campuses, our towns and our nation. So that goes a long way. It increases cross-cultural understanding. And by the way, you know what? That's why we also encourage our U.S. students to go abroad so that they can have that same cross-cultural experience.

  And finally, Brooke, I think we as colleges and universities have a social and a moral responsibility. We are more interconnected now than ever and need to work together to solve the world's problems. We see it in the pandemic, right? We see that we as nations have to work together and we no longer live in a bubble. So international education really is the way to begin to build those important bridges.

  [00:24:31] BW: I think those are inspiring words, and that's a great place to end this episode of College Admissions Insider. Thank you, Brett, for being our guest and really giving us some great insight about international students. I just found it really fascinating. I also want to thank our listeners for being such an important part of the College Admissions Insider community.

  [00:24:49] BT: Yeah. We hope you'll tune in for the next episode that we drop on Monday, March 22nd.

  [00:24:54] BW: We'd also love to hear from you out there if you have a question or a comment, or even want to be a guest on a future episode. You can email podcast@bucknell.edu.

  [00:25:03] BT: And if you're interested in learning more about applying to Bucknell, whether that's as an international student or someone who lives within the U.S., you can head over to bucknell.edu/apply. And we will add that link and some others to the show notes as well.

  [00:25:16] BW: Thank you so much for listening to College Admissions Insider, and we will see you next time.