Episode 3: Applying Undecided

Episode 3 Transcript

• Episode 3 Transcript

  [00:00:06] BW: Welcome to College Admissions Insider, the podcast where we talk to real college admissions counselors to bring you expert advice for your college search. I'm Bryan Wendell from Bucknell University.

  [00:00:17] BT: And I’m Brooke Thames also from Bucknell University. Our goal is to cut through all the fluff to give you everything you need to start, continue, or complete your college search.

  [00:00:25] BW: Brooke, when I was applying to colleges however many years ago, I knew with 100% confidence that I was going to be a TV news guy. And so I only put one major on my college applications: I put broadcast journalism. And then I got to Texas Tech, and that lasted one semester. I ended up changing my major to print journalism. And now here I am co-hosting a podcast. Look at that. It's true that life can take some interesting turns. So I'm interested, Brooke, what about you? Did you have a major picked out when you applied to college?

  [00:00:55] BT: A little bit. I knew I wanted my career to revolve around writing and storytelling, and it seemed like journalism would be a really good way to tell important stories. So that’s what I declared in my application. But I didn't really have a clear idea of what that would look like until I actually got to college, the experienced that major, took those classes, and realized and discovered it was the right thing for me.

  [00:01:17] BW: I think that's pretty common. We know that not everybody has a major identified when apply season arrives and when that deadline is approaching. And, in fact, we crunch the numbers, and the most popular major for students applying to Bucknell is undecided or undeclared. And, actually, a quarter of all first-year Bucknell students haven't yet declared a major.

  [00:01:36] BT: But we know that undecided doesn't necessarily mean indecisive. It can actually end up showing your willingness to explore and take advantage of the wide range of educational opportunities that await you in college.

  [00:01:48] BW: But does applying undecided hurt your chances of getting into schools like Bucknell? What is an application reader think when they see undecided on your application? And how can you actually make undecided work in your advantage?

  [00:02:01] BT: We invited an expert to answer those exact questions and more. Chrissy Findlay is the associate dean of admissions at Bucknell University. Among her many roles, Chrissy reviews admissions and scholarship applications and works with high school students in parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Thanks for joining us on the podcast, Chrissy.

  [00:02:18] CF: Thanks for having me, Bryan and Brooke. I'm really excited to be here.

  [00:02:21] BW: We’re really glad you're here. And Chrissy I know you read hundreds of applications every year. And so statistically speaking, a decent number of those must stay undecided on them, right? So what does that tell you as an application reader about that student?

  [00:02:36] CF: Yup, definitely read 100 — at least 100 applications a year, if not more. I ultimately take away that they haven't decided what their true interest is, and that is okay. I actually stop using the word undecided years ago and switched to undeclared as I was picking up on the fact that students seem to be struggling with potentially being viewed as indecisive.

  So several things come to mind: open-minded and curious — a desire to take advantage of a range of campus opportunities like departmental majors, classes, faculty, peers, programs, mentors, research, everything there to examine what's out there. I also think it's really interesting that I think there's a willingness to invest time to explore what inevitably interests and excites them hopefully. And then also there's enthusiasm. I'm hoping for the journey of discovering what excites them, and that Bucknell would be a great place for that journey of self-discovery. So there's a lot there, but I can truly say I am excited about reading the undeclared applications.

  [00:03:42] BT: Yeah, it sounds like for those who are still kind deciding what their path is, the world college is wide open for them. When it comes to being admitted, does applying undecided help a student’s chances of getting in? Hurt their chances? Or does it not have an effect at all?

  [00:03:57] CF: Well, Brooke, that’s a tough question to answer as it could really vary across colleges and universities. So for us at Bucknell, it would not negatively impact, or infer anything other than a student's desire to explore and commit to discovery. At Bucknell, we view each applicant within the context of their respective world, and admissions reviews and decisions entail a holistic and comprehensive review of an entire application. There are always things to consider that maybe applications think that applying undeclared is an easier way to get admitted to Bucknell, essentially using a strategy. That's a tough pill to swallow. They could find themselves in some precarious situations, like maybe some situations without immediate access to certain advisors or even classes. Although I do know at Bucknell we do our best through some preregistration processes to help undeclared students register for classes to which they communicated they’re interested in.

  And we also don't want students to strategize and maybe take a seat away from someone who is truly undeclared. What I always love to share with families who ask me these questions is that if they look at the outcomes data, whether that's our graduation rates, our placement rates…Regardless of the majors to which students graduated with, our outcome data is strong. And so therefore whether you are undeclared, you declared a major, you’ve changed majors, you’ve added, the data is there and the data is strong that our students are graduating and being placed at some of the nation's top rates.

  [00:05:31] BW: That’s great, and they’re finding opportunities that they might not have known even existed going in. So how could they have chosen that major that they hadn't even been introduced to? Yeah, that's really great. So let's talk about kind of the more practical side of actually applying undecided. Once you get to Bucknell if you're an undecided — or undeclared as you like to say — student, I know you have to apply to one of the three colleges. So that's arts and sciences, engineering and the Freeman College of Management, but it's not always possible to transfer between those colleges, right? So what do students need to know about the Bucknell policies that might affect those undeclared students?

  [00:06:08] CF: Well, students definitely need to do their research, whether it's Bucknell or another institution, because it could really vary across colleges and universities. At Bucknell, students should do their research so that they can prepare themselves for what to expect as an enrolled student. I think reviewing course curriculum — what may [or] may not be available to them as an undeclared student. Performance is important, but space issues could exist in certain programs. We do have some programs at Bucknell where the first-year class is very small. And so there may be some space issues, but I know as an institution we do our best to try to accommodate students. They have to be in good academic standing. But I really think students need to take advantage of the conversations with faculty, with upper-class students who are part of programs they’re interested in, and especially advising. I think whether it's the summer advising opportunity or the advisor they receive when they begin in the fall. It's really important to have that dialogue so they can truly understand what the situations are if there are limitations just so that they're fully aware of what's ahead of them.

  And at Bucknell, while it can be a challenge for students to…They may have some difficulty with the fact that they cannot move into, say, Freeman College of Management. We do have an opportunity for them to take an unlimited number of courses there as a non-Freeman student. And I think that's really important to understand and appreciate and to take advantage of. And then there are some other issues that students need to be aware of, and that certain programs have eight semester degree requirements. And so they need to be well-versed with their own credit evaluation process as well as moving forward. So the conversations with faculty and deans are very, very important.

  [00:08:09] BT: Yeah. And you mentioned quickly there classes being opened to non-management students. Although there may be a certain kind of specific schools or colleges within a larger university…As a liberal arts college like Bucknell, we have tons of classes that are open to people of all majors to kind of go in and explore. And so what makes a liberal arts university like Bucknell that kind of has that structure and that openness a good place for students who aren't sure what major fits them best?

  [00:08:34] CF: This is one of my favorite things to discuss about Bucknell. In general, liberal arts universities offer a well-rounded education, which allows students to choose from a wide range of classes and majors within a curriculum. Making students versatile and ultimately preparing them to be successful learners, and thinkers, and leaders. That said, Bucknell takes it to another level given the intersection of selective liberal arts and professional programs, with many of them nationally ranked and recognized programs offering students a really extraordinary experience which will prepare them for our complex and ever-changing world. I heard one time over the summer, and I'll never forget this: life doesn't happen in a straight line. And college should be about preparing you for a future that is unknown and unwritten.

  Furthermore, given the fact that Bucknell is one of the largest liberal arts institutions, we offer a truly unique experience. The combination of personal attention of a smaller school where you get smaller classes, access to faculty, strong sense of community, as well as provide many opportunities and experiences found at larger research institutions. I think it's the best of both worlds.

  [00:09:48] BW: So Chrissy, I know that some students are truly undecided, while others might be choosing between two, or three or, or four, or even 10, 12 majors that interest them. So in that case, is it better to still apply undecided or should they just say, “Okay, I'm going to go with this major on my application knowing that I could perhaps change later.”

  [00:10:10] CF: I think that if a student has done his or her research and they are truly undecided, then they are undeclared. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a lot of pressure these days for students to make decisions as 17 and 18-year-olds, especially the Gen Z-ers who are very focused and driven, independent, and competitive. Feeling the pressure and facing expectations all around them — school, family, and themselves. And they don't want to let anybody down. And so ultimately it would be great if students undeclared or declared gave themselves permission to explore and hopefully be excited about making connections between classes and subjects so they could synthesize what comes next — research, grad school, employment. And it's all fulfilling and positive.

  So I think students truly need to be okay with choosing undeclared if they're willing to invest their four years into exploring and being open-minded, and discovering what excites them and what ultimately could lead to a happy and fulfilling career and life.

  [00:11:27] BT: So I’m curious, what about competitive programs within a school? Some students may not know exactly if they want to major in a particular science or a particular art. But some of those programs could be really competitive and only have a certain number of seats. So would applying undecided hurts someone’s chances of getting into those programs? Or if a student thinks that they might want to go in a direction, should they click that on their application?

  [00:11:49] CF: Well, it comes back to doing research again, because this could vary amongst colleges and universities. For us, investigate the web. Review the admissions class profiles. There are a lot of valuable data there. Take advantage of the virtual and in-person visit programming, especially the programming that connects prospective students to current students and faculty. We have quite a bit happening right now given COVID. We have virtual tours. We have virtual info sessions. We have virtual chats, where we have our current students at the forefront of all of those events.

  We are offering in-person visits right now. We’re also…That included an ambassador-led campus tour. There are a lot of ways to engage with students. And I think some of our students are some of the best resources to help prospective students think through these kinds of situations where maybe prospective students are leaning towards a competitive major, they're not sure, they've done their research, and they’re really trying to find out what it's like when they're not part of the Bucknell community yet.

  I think they should also reach out to admissions counselors with questions as well via email, Zoom, phone calls. We’re there, and this is something I've done for my 20 plus years in admissions. Almost assuming the role of a counselor, I guess, and talking students through what Bucknell can offer them. And after all of that, if a student is strongly considering a competitive major, competitive program or college, and deep down knows that a particular college or major really excites and interests them, then I'd recommend pursuing a major there. Or choose the undeclared option in that respective college, as some degree tracks have more stringent course loads and pathways.

  So again, if they’re leaning toward something, and they know after all their research that the arts or the sciences or the social sciences really, really excites them, then apply to that respective college as an undeclared and start to take the introductory courses, which serve as a guidepost for them. And they’ll still be on track to graduate in four years.

  [00:14:10] BW: That’s actually a great segue to the next question. But first I got to say, I love that advice about reaching out to an admissions counselor. Even if you're still undecided about being undecided on your application, right? You can still reach out with questions. The resources aren't just one-way streets, right? “Listen to this podcast or read this website.” You can get that two-way communication as well.

  So going back to what you said about graduating on time, if someone is undeclared and they do want that time to explore various majors before finally having to declare that major, will they have time to do that? Could you help us figure out whether that might hurt their chances of being able to graduate on their timeline?

  [00:14:50] CF: It wouldn’t hurt their chances. The University invests in the four-year experience. I mean, we do have five-year programs, but it’s about the four-year experience. And if we want students to explore through our curriculum, then we as a University need to be prepared for students interests varying a bit.

  So typically, most of our students declare their majors in the sophomore year. Engineering, it’s the first year. We want all of our students to graduate in four years. Our graduation rate is about 30 percentage points higher than the national average for the four-year and the six-year graduation rates. So we’re doing it well. And I think we’re doing it well because the University’s committed to advising, and mentoring, and supporting students who want to explore — who understand the value of the interdisciplinary and comprehensive nature of our curriculum, regardless of which college they’re primarily studying in. But students need to be aware that some programs will only allow an eight-semester experience, for instance, our College of Management. So students need to go online and they need to look at each college, and then they need to engage with admissions counselors or students through, again, virtual visits, in-person visits and ask questions about maybe some similar situations that maybe prevented somebody from moving into a major they were really interested in.

  Bucknell does all it can to provide a comprehensive experience, not just academic experience, but holistic experience to our students. Our students are curious, they’re engaged, they’re interested. They like to learn things from a variety of lenses. They value community. And I think sometimes our students get really excited about majors and minors, and the opportunities tied into research and internships, and residential learning, and global education. But it is a four-year experience. So our students need to keep a handle on their track, but ultimately we want our students to be happy. And if someone is happy as a double major, double minor, triple major with a minor, or just one major, and their Bucknell experience is happy and fulfilling, I think we've done our job.

  [00:17:06] BT: Yeah. Generally, it sounds like students have a little bit of time, but especially looking at colleges that are invested in their four-year experience, open to them exploring, and having some flexibility is really good for students who are still deciding what their path is. And so when prospective students get to the application point, I know at Bucknell they're asked to explain why they selected the major that they did. And if they’re undecided, they’re also asked to explain why they’re undecided as well. How do you recommend students approach questions like that that they might encounter on a variety of applications for different schools?

  [00:17:41] CF: Brooke, this is my favorite part of the application: why they’re interested in their particular first choice major. I truly get excited about reading the undeclared applications as to why they’re interested. I just think that they need to be honest and just lay it out there. They shouldn't be afraid to communicate their varied interests. It could be the arts, the sciences, humanities, social science. It can set the tone for the application review, because it's one of the first things we read and corroborate other application information like the extracurriculars, as well as details about them from their recommenders who know them well and can speak to their potential. I think that reflective, intellectually curious, open-minded students can excite admissions professionals, because those are the students who will likely embrace the interdisciplinary curriculum and hopefully immerse themselves into the campus community.

  I actually have some examples here if you like me to share a couple examples of some rationales or some why undeclared majors. Is that okay if I share some?

  [00:18:49] BW: Yeah, absolutely.

  [00:18:50] CF: “So there's a couple here, and they vary. I can honestly say that I am not sure what I want to do with my life.” Okay, honest. “At this time, I am not prepared to declare a major. After giving this a tremendous amount of thought, I'm applying to Bucknell as undecided in the College of Arts and Sciences, because I have varied interests. Throughout my academic and extracurricular pursuits, I have participated in science research, music, athletics, creative writing, and robotics. I find certain aspects to all of these endeavors rewarding. I plan to embrace a well-rounded education to develop a deeper understanding. The world is in desperate need of clearheaded problem solvers with a pure heart. I am confident that with hard work, resourcefulness, and an open mind, in four years I'll be prepared to contribute in a meaningful way, whether it’d be education, business, government, or the sciences.”

  [00:19:52] BW: I like that one. It’s good.

  [00:19:53] CF: See why I get excited about reading them?

  [00:19:56] BW: That sounds like the best part of your job. If you ever need help with that, you know how to call.

  [00:20:00] CF: We’ll let you know.

  [00:20:02] BW: Do you have any more examples you want to share? Or do you want to stop with those two?

  [00:20:04] CF: Sure.

  [00:20:05] BW: Okay.

  [00:20:06] CF: “I’m entering as undecided because I think it would be more beneficial for my future if I explore a plethora of options before making a decision. I want to find something I'm passionate about, and I believe the best way to do that is to be involved with many different activities and classes at Bucknell.”

  [00:20:25] BT: Awesome, yeah. Definitely in the liberal arts spirit there.

  [00:20:28] BW: I love those examples, Chrissy. Thank you for sharing those. And really puts kind of a human face on that undeclared major. And another thing we should definitely point out is that a lot of students at Bucknell will double major. And so that’s another way of kind of straddling two different passions and pursuing that. And, of course, there's a minor as well is another way to continue more than one passion if you can't quite decide on one. And we really want to just thank you for this fascinating discussion. I’m totally decided about that, that this was a great discussion. So thanks for joining us, Chrissy Findlay.

  [00:21:00] CF: Thanks for having me.

  [00:21:02] BT: Yeah, we definitely enjoyed having you here. And we hope you at home gained some insights to the pros and cons of applying undecided to the schools on your list.

  [00:21:09] BW: And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with your friends and family and keep listening. We’re releasing new episodes every other week. Each one is a really deep dive into an important element of the college admissions process.

  [00:21:23] BT: But we don't want this podcast be a one way street. So if you have ideas for topics you'd like us to discuss in future episodes or if you’re a college admissions officer interested in being a guest for a future episode, feel free to contact us at podcast@bucknell.edu. Find the links for this episode in our show notes.

  [00:21:40] BW: And finally if you're interested in learning more about applying to Bucknell, undeclared or otherwise, head to bucknell.edu/apply.

  [00:21:48] BT: Thanks for listening to College Admissions Insider. We will see you next time.