Episode 32: So You Want To Be a Lawyer: Preparing for Law School While in College

Episode 32 Transcript

• Episode 32 Transcript

  EPISODE 32

  [INTRODUCTION]

  [00:00:06] BW: It’s one of the oldest professions and a job that touches nearly every aspect of our lives — from finances and real estate to commerce, health care and beyond.

  [00:00:17] BT: That far-reaching trade is law, which encompasses far more than the intense courtroom scenes that we see in crime movies and TV shows. In fact, there are more than a dozen major fields of law and an array of even more nuanced concentrations offered at law schools around the country.

  [00:00:32] BW: So for those who dream of attending law school one day, where do you start? What undergraduate majors will lay the right foundation? What courses should you take in college to acquire and hone the skills you’ll need in any legal field? And what can you do now to set yourself up for future success? I’m Bryan Wendell from Bucknell University, and in this episode of College Admissions Insider, we’ll provide a guide to all that and more.

  [00:00:58] BT: I’m Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell. And we are joined by Dianne McDonald, a Pre-Law Advisor at Bucknell, who helps students plot their journeys toward a career in law. Dianne practice law in Virginia and Illinois, before working with the Department of Defense. She has a master’s in education and has been advising pre-law students for more than a decade. Welcome to the podcast, Dianne.

  [00:01:17] DM: Thank you. Happy to be here.

  [00:01:20] BW: Yeah, it’s a real pleasure to have you here, and I’m excited about this episode. So let’s just dive right in. I know you offer pre-law advising through Bucknell Center for Career Advancement. So can you give us an overview of your role and what kind of services you provide to the Bucknell students?

  [00:01:37] DM: So I work with both students and alums that are considering law school, as well as those who’ve made the decision to go on to law school. For those that have made that decision, I help them with the application process. For those that are still trying to kind of discern a path, I help coordinate and put on some educational programs, and provide internship guidance and class selection for students who are also considering law school.

  [00:02:10] BT: I’m sure that there are plenty of students who know coming in that they want to be a lawyer someday, but there may be others who discovered that along the way while they’re at Bucknell. So, I mean, at what point do students typically come to you in their college journey? And, I’m curious, what ideas or misconceptions maybe do they have about studying to become a lawyer?

  [00:02:27] DM: We do an orientation program, so I have some students that work with me all four years because they might feel fairly certain that they want to go into law. I have other people that don’t contact me until after they’ve graduated, and they’ve been out working, and now they’ve made the decision to go to law school.

  So the biggest misconception that people have is that most law students go directly from undergraduate school. This isn’t true. About two-thirds of the people who go on to law school have work experience after undergraduate school. Probably the next biggest misconception is that in order to be a competitive applicant for law school, you need to have had a legal internship because that’s not true.

  [00:03:19] BW: So is there a specific pre-law track that you’ll find that at schools? If so, do law schools want to even see that, right? Do they want to see you following that prescribed curriculum and checking all those boxes?

  [00:03:33] DM: Yeah, there are some schools that have a pre-law track. But on the whole, law schools prefer that you not study law as an undergraduate because they would prefer to teach you the law in law school. So it is actually not only is it not preferred, to some extent they encourage people to avoid that as much as possible.

  What they’re seeking in law schools is a diversity of interest. So they want people from all different academic backgrounds, not one specific major. On the whole, though, I can say you want to take academically challenging courses, a curriculum that maybe helps you develop good skills for being an attorney and succeeding in law school. But there isn’t one particular major, no.
  
  [00:04:30] BT: So while there isn’t one specific major or one specific track that law schools are looking for from applicants, are there certain types of majors that might help students gain the skills that they need in order to be on that track? You talked a little bit about certain types of courses to build certain skills. What are those types of courses? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

  [00:04:52] DM: I would say that in terms of building skills, most liberal arts curricula would help you build the skills that are necessary. The types of skills that they’re looking for are analytical thinking, critical thinking, problem-solving, any kind of communication skill, both written and oral. They’re looking for people who are able to pay attention to detail and put that into a bigger picture. Leadership skills. So as you could tell that you can acquire those skills from all different majors.

  Some majors need to supplement their coursework for the type of writing, for example, that you would need. But on the whole, you could major in almost anything. Ironically, even though it’s the liberal arts that helped develop most of those skills, right now there’s a huge demand for attorneys with technical and science backgrounds. So the law schools are very open to those right now. They’re recruiting people with those kinds of backgrounds to go into law.

  [00:06:04] BW: Yeah, so that might be a way you could stand out. What’s great about liberal arts education is it does really provide you with that broad base of experiences that law schools want to see.

  So when you graduate with a degree from a liberal arts school or anywhere, do students typically go right into law school after that? I know you mentioned that earlier that was a misconception, that it’s kind of moving from one school right to the next. But is that typical? Or do these law schools want to see that you’ve done work or internships in that gap period between?
  
  [00:06:39] DM: Right, yeah. There are some schools that are more vocal about it than others, but there seems to be a little bit of a preference for people who’ve had some work experience, and that makes a lot of sense if you stop and think about it. Statistically, attorneys…there are people that are extremely happy with their legal careers. Then we also, in the legal profession, have some serious issues with high suicide rates and alcoholism rates and those kinds of things that indicate that people might not be that happy with their lives.

  Unlike the decision going from high school to college, for example, you’re going to go on to college and do some self-exploration. Law school is not for that. It is strictly for entering the legal profession and it’s the training you need for the legal profession. Most people who go out and work for a period of time discover what they like in a work environment and how they thrive. They can take that knowledge into law school and find the right path. There are so many paths once you have that law degree.

  [00:07:51] BT: So you mentioned students don’t necessarily need to have prior legal experience before applying or attending law school. But there is that gap where students can go out and get some of that experience. So I’m curious, what are some examples of legal and maybe non-legal work as well that students tend to do that does help translate into going into law school?

  [00:08:12] DM: Sure, yeah. I’ve had people who wanted to explore whether they wanted to work in a legal environment. You can definitely get a job as a paralegal out of Bucknell. There are a number of firms that will train you to do that work in exchange for a commitment. For example, a two-year commitment at that firm. That’s a great way to explore that legal environment and whether you want to do it.

  Then I’ve also had a number of people go on, for example…I mentioned science degrees are in demand, engineering, that kind of thing. So people will sometimes go into those fields and get that work experience prior to going on to law school. Then some people, they go into whatever other field people in their major tend to go into — banking, finance, business, whatever it is — and work for a few years before going on to law school.

  [00:09:09] BW: Now, there might be some people listening to this who say, “I know I want to be a lawyer. I’ve known ever since I was in first grade and I had some sort of eye-opening experience about law.” So for that person, is there a path that’s high school, undergrad, law school? I mean, can that be done if they’re like, “I don’t want to waste any time. I want to get out there and start practicing law just as soon as I can.” ?

  [00:09:34] DM: Sure, yes. I mentioned about a third of the people do that. I always say, “Come application season, I hope that I feel really confident about that group that is doing that.” If they’ve explored throughout their four years in college the possibilities out in the legal world, the different paths that exist, and if they’ve done enough self-exploration to know exactly how they plan to use the law degree. Maybe not exactly as in, “Oh, I’m definitely going to be a tax attorney.” But if they know, “Oh, I want to do transactional type work,” or, “I want to do litigation work,” they should at least have that kind of thing figured out before going on to law school. Yeah, I feel like a lot of those people have situated themselves well for success and to be happy in their chosen profession.

  [00:10:31] BT: Speaking of those different paths, we mentioned up top that there are plenty of major fields of law. You mentioned some there. I’m curious, when students come to you, do they typically have this idea of going into criminal law, or going into litigation and being that person on Law & Order who’s, “You can’t handle the truth,” or…?

  [00:10:52] DM: Yeah, it’s funny. That’s a favorite movie of almost all pre-law students, it seems like. But, yeah, some people do have a pretty clear idea. I encourage first years, though, to explore because people coming into college will change significantly over the four years that they’re here. I always tell them, “Yeah, you’ve got your whole lifetime to do the profession, so you want to do some exploration.” We put on a number of programs every year that allow students to interact with attorneys in all different fields. That is a way that they can do some of that exploration and learn about the different lifestyles that are associated with different paths.

  [00:11:41] BT: For our listeners, would you be able to maybe list a couple of those maybe broader paths that students can take in different types of lawyers that they can be?

  [00:11:50] DM: Sure. I mean, there are attorneys that deal primarily with domestic relations, for example. Those people work closely with individuals in given situations, and some of it involves a lot of paperwork but they also will see some courtroom time at times. Criminal law, for example, you’re going to be going to court. If you’re interested in litigation, that’s a good path for you. Then some people go into transactional law, business law, for example, where they might be dealing with contracts and negotiations and things like that.

  We bring in attorneys who’ve had long successful careers, many of whom say, “I haven’t seen a courtroom since I did mock trial.” They’ve never had to go into the courtroom. Different places where you work have different demands. Some allow people to have a really good work-life balance. Others, you have to be pretty committed to your work. So people need to find the right place for them.

  [00:13:02] BT: So we’ve talked a lot about transitioning to law school and doing the exploration of deciding what you want to do moving forward. But before you even get accepted, you have to pass what is the law school admissions test, or the LSAT. As I understand it, undergraduates will typically take that in their junior year. So what resources can students access in college to help prepare them? For high schoolers, is there anything that they can do now that’ll benefit them when that time comes?

  [00:13:26] DM: Yes, there are a number of resources out there. There are a number of preparation courses that you can take. Some you have to pay for, but right now there’s a free one through Khan Academy, and it helps you learn the logic of the LSAT. That is something that people can do on their own as well, just by taking practice exams.

  For high schoolers or even college students who are not quite ready to jump into preparation for the test, they can still kind of prepare by taking courses that require a lot of reading. Especially reading that is in depth and requires a lot of analysis as you’re comprehending it, because there’s a whole section on the test that is reading comprehension.

  [00:14:16] BW: That’s interesting. Yeah, it’s kind of like that passive preparation that they’re going to get early on. It all helps, right?

  We should also talk about affordability here because it’s no secret that law school isn’t cheap. So, of course, there is the promise that once you’ve become a lawyer, then you’re going to get the money to pay all that back. But how do you advise students when it comes to affordability and how much it’s going to cost them to go to law school, and then whether they’re going to be able to pay that back?

  [00:14:44] DM: Right. It’s a crucial question. It’s something that everyone who’s going to law school should consider, and we put on a program every year about financing law school. But I always encourage people who will be financing law school to make sure that they schedule a one-on-one appointment because everyone’s situation is different, and a lot of people are not aware there’s a huge discrepancy in the pay for different areas of law, and in different places in the country as well. So all that needs to be factored in before you decide where to go to law school and how much debt to take on in order to achieve that law degree.

  [00:15:29] BW: We talked about the promise of a nice paycheck if you are in a field that pays well, but what does the landscape look like as far as finding a job once you graduate law school? Is there a high enough demand in the space that students can almost be assured a paycheck once they graduate law school?

  [00:15:48] DM: Right. Actually, it’s gotten better. There was a period of time where the law schools were graduating too many people, and there was a lot of popular press on that. They have self-corrected, and now the class sizes tend to be a little smaller, and so people are getting jobs. But like I mentioned, it can vary quite a bit what the starting pay is at different jobs in different locations. You can’t just assume that you’re going to get one of those high-paying jobs. That doesn’t always happen.

  [00:16:21] BT: So we’ve dropped a few hints throughout this episode for high schoolers who know that they already kind of want to go into law — we’ve dropped some hints for them on how to prepare. But to talk to them a little bit more in depth, I’m sure there are a few who are listening to this episode, so what can they do now to best set themselves up for success?

  [00:16:39] DM: Well, my first piece of advice would be take academically challenging classes. That’s most important. But also develop what we call the soft skills outside of the classroom on leadership, the ability to work well with others, strong communication skills. Those are very important in the legal profession, and you can definitely begin working on those in high school, developing those.

  Then I also tell people, you should get some work experience. Volunteer work or paid or that allows you to work with people from a variety of backgrounds. Because as an attorney, that is what you will be doing. I have people come in, sometimes, they say to me, “The only job I’ve ever had is waiting tables.” But I’ve also heard from one of the top law schools in the country from the head of their admissions, they look for that because it’s grace under pressure, and you are working with nice people and not-so-nice people. That mirrors what happens in the legal profession. So I would just encourage high schoolers to think about the courses that they’re selecting, and then work on those skills outside of the classroom.

  [00:17:54] BW: So get that experience, and then find a job at the local diner. I love that. Yeah, that’s awesome.

  So, Dianne, kind of in closing here, I know you work with a lot of students, as you said, from when they come into Bucknell. So you get to see them for four years and beyond as they take their next steps after graduation, whatever that might be. So I’m curious like just from a personal standpoint. What is the most rewarding part about making those types of connections, and do you have an example that comes to mind of one that was especially meaningful and memorable?

  [00:18:27] DM: Yeah. I would say what’s most rewarding in this job is you do build these relationships. I get to see young people develop into mature adults who are able to make good decisions for themselves and go into a profession where they can help others. That’s very rewarding.

  As far as an example, I know I had a young woman who came in as a first-year student with lots of questions and kept saying, “I’m not sure this is what I want to do.” I always tell people, “Keep an open mind but explore and learn as much as you can.” She definitely did that. By the time she was about to go into her senior year, she knew that she wanted to go into law, and she had a decently clear vision of what she wanted to achieve there. She did a great job putting together a strong application and she got accepted everywhere that she had applied, including some top 14 schools. She instead chose a different school outside of the top 14 that offered her a good scholarship, but would give her the freedom to go on and practice law that she wanted to practice. That was a wonderful thing to experience from beginning to end. She is now out practicing law and doing very well and doing what she wants to do. So that’s very rewarding to watch.

  [00:20:00] BT: Yeah, I think that’s an awesome story to leave with this episode of College Admissions Insider. Thanks to Dianne for joining us and sharing her insight.

  [00:20:08] DM: Thank you.

  [00:20:09] BW: And thanks to our listeners out there for checking out College Admissions Insider. If you’re a fan of the podcast, we’d love for you to take a moment to share, rate, and subscribe.

  [00:20:18] BT: We will be back with another episode in just two weeks. In the meantime, send your questions, comments, and episode ideas to us at podcast@bucknell.edu.

  [00:20:28] BW: Finally, be sure to follow Bucknell on social media. You can find us at @bucknellu on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and now even TikTok. Then don’t forget about the student run Instagram account, which is a great follow. It’s @iamraybucknell.

  [00:20:44] BT: Until next time, keep on reaching for your dreams and your dream school.

  [END]