Episode 4: Inside the Mind of an Application Reader

Episode 4 Transcript

• Episode 4 Transcript

  [00:00:06] BW: Welcome to College Admissions Insider, the podcast where we talk to real college admissions counselors to bring you expert advice for your college search. I’m Bryan Wendell from Bucknell University.

  [00:00:16] BT: And I am Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell University. Our goal is to cut through all the fluff to give you everything you need to start, to continue, or complete your college search.

  [00:00:25] BW: Hey, Brooke. Do you hear that sound?

  [00:00:29] BT: No. I don't think I hear anything.

  [00:00:32] BW: Exactly. That silence is what most students hear after they apply to college. They pour over every detail of the application. They craft the perfect essay. They get some top-notch recommendations.

  [00:00:47] BT: Yeah. You're right, totally right. Then they send that application off and nothing. No feedback until that envelope or email arrives with what is hopefully good news.

  [00:00:58] BW: And even that feedback really just comes in three different varieties. Yes, you're in. That's what we hope to see. No, you didn't get in. Or hang on. You've been put on the waitlist. The student doesn't know where they went right or what thinking went into the decision to admit them.

  [00:01:13] BT: So today, what we're hoping to do is to put an end to at least some of that uncertainty surrounding the process of application review, and we're going to take you inside the mind of an application reader.

  [00:01:24] BW: Hey, that's the title of the episode. Alright, our guest is Lauren Rambo, Bucknell University's Senior Assistant Director of Admissions and the University's southeastern regional representative — which means she works with students in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, and even some parts of New Jersey. It’s a pretty big region. Welcome to the podcast, Lauren.

  [EPISODE]

  [00:01:47] LR: Thanks, Bryan. Thanks, Brooke.

  [00:01:48] BT: Yeah, great to have you. Lauren, I imagine things get really, really busy once you're officially in that application reading season. So can you walk us through what a typical day or week might look for you?

  [00:02:02] LR: Yeah. So application reading season really covers from November to March, at least for Bucknell. Some other places it starts even earlier if they have October deadlines. So we're spending all that time reviewing every application that comes through our doors, while also trying to do all the other things that keeps an admissions office running. A typical day would include reading applications from 9:00 to 12:00. We take a little break, and then from 1:00 to 4:00. Sometimes, it's evening work. Sometimes, it's Saturdays. In our office, we reserve Wednesdays for other meetings. So our time during reading season is spent, the majority, just trying to get through all of your applications.

  [00:02:47] BW: Sounds like a pretty hectic and busy season for you. Okay, so on one of those days, 9:00 to 12:00 or 1:00 to 4:00, let's say you've got a student's application in front of you. I’m curious what that even looks like. What are you seeing? Is there a printout with everything on it? Are you looking at a PDF on your screen? Is there some type of special software that's only accessible to college admissions professionals like you? What exactly are you seeing?

  [00:03:13] LR: Yeah. It used to be all paper printouts. But now, it's really a PDF is what we're looking at, and we do have a special software that allows us to flip through each page of the application. So when students complete their Common App or Coalition Application, they're able to review everything they submitted with all their answers on it. That final review is actually what we see, so it looks the same to us as it did to the students when they finish their application. When they're double-checking, triple-checking their work — which they absolutely should do — you'll really see what an admissions counselor sees.

  I think something that's helpful to know is because we're reading so many applications, our eyes are kind of trained to where we're going to find different information on the page. So a quick scan for us can actually reveal a lot of information because we know where each section is located and what we're going to find on each page.

  [00:04:14] BT: Gotcha, yeah. And when you're getting into that review, what's that process I guess for looking at everything in a student's application? Yeah, I guess beyond that quick scan?

  [00:04:23] LR: Yeah. So our process is a little different, and a number of universities use this as well. It’s called the committee-based evaluation. That means two people, two readers are looking at the application at the same time. We'll both have our computers open with our laptops and then we have a shared screen as well. So both readers can see all of the notes that we're taking, can see what we're looking at, and we're having a conversation about the student. One reader will be focused on the academic information, the high school context, and that's the person who works most closely with your high school. For me, it's all the students from the southeast and that small part of New Jersey.

  Then the other person is looking at your essay, your activities, recommendations, and we're talking about it as we go. So we're sharing information back and forth and coming to a conclusion about the student, providing notes and a summary so that the next person who reviews the application will be able to get a sense of our evaluation in the first read.

  [00:05:30] BW: Interesting. So it's a collaborative process. Speaking of that process, I know that there's kind of a rumor out there. I know I heard this when I was applying to college, that admissions offices will compare one student to another. Student A might have a better GPA than student B, but student B was first chair clarinet or whatever. Is that true? Are you comparing students in that way?

  [00:05:54] LR: Not really. Something that I wish all students knew was that when we're reading an application, we're really focused on just you. So we're always looking at the application within the context of that person. I’m focusing in on what you've experienced, what that student's accomplishments have been, what they hope to achieve, and only looking about and thinking about that one student as a part of the Bucknell community, as a part of the class.

  Bryan, if I open your application up first, I’m really focused in on your information. I write a summary, close the application out, and then I open Brooke’s application up, and I’m only thinking about Brooke. It allows us to understand the student a little better. Everyone has something to contribute to a class and in different ways as well. Direct comparisons are almost impossible and really not fair to the students either. We want to know your story and your context and your world. But we also do have institutional priorities, so maybe this year we do need more clarinet players. The fact that that student's GPA is a little lower than maybe what we typically see might be counteracted by the fact that they're an amazing clarinet player.

  It doesn't mean student A's really high GPA and academic excellence is any less important. We need that kind of student too to engage with faculty. But it's really about shaping a class and thinking about all of the different things that every single student has to contribute to the whole community.

  [00:07:34] BT: No, that's great. Yeah, I think one of the most nerve-wracking things about applying to college is knowing that you're going up against so many other prospective students. So it’s great for students to know that they're really being evaluated on their own merit in that process. So, yeah, when you’re focusing on one student's application at a time…I’m sure you read hundreds of those every week, but what are some ways that students can make their application stand out as you really zoom in on one at a time?

  [00:07:58] LR: Honestly, to be yourself. And I know it sounds so cliched, and it's so easy to say that — “just be yourself.” But how do you actually do that in an application, right? It’s so easy to suddenly try to be doing what you think the admission counselor wants to read or what you think they want to see, but we're really trying to get to know the student as much as we possibly can. So making sure that in their application they're thoughtful, they're giving themselves time and space to fill something out, and then come back and look at it again, that really helps us see a student as a whole person. We're looking to know who are they going to be when they get on our campus and also can we help them achieve their dreams and their goals?

  So you really want to make sure that if something has been important to you throughout high school, that you're sharing it with us in some way, shape, or form, whether it's in the application. There's an additional information section that's kind of a catch-all for I need to say this, I need to tell you this, but I don't know where else to put it. So, yeah, I mean, it really comes down to who are you and who could you possibly be on our campus too.

  [00:09:14] BW: That's really helpful to know what students should put on their application and stuff that is about them, right? Help them be themselves. But I’m also curious how you look at things that aren't there. Some people might say holes in the application like let's say a student chooses not to include their test scores. For a school like Bucknell that went test-optional a couple of years ago, do you factor the absence of things like test scores into your decision? I know we're actually doing a whole episode on test-optional policies coming soon but I'd love to hear your take on that as an application reader.

  [00:09:50] LR: Yeah. That's a really common question that we get, and I think the piece that students don't quite believe us yet about [is] that we're not trying to guess why information isn't there. One, we don't have time to guess why information isn't there and, two, there are so many reasons why a student might choose to not take or not to submit a test score that if we tried to guess, we would probably get it wrong. It could be because they didn't have the time, energy, or resources to take multiple standardized tests so they just want to leave that out of their application. Maybe they did do well on their standardized tests but they don't want to be thought of as a number. There are so many reasons in between.

  This year in particular, in 2020 with COVID-19, more and more students haven't been able to take a standardized test. One of the things that I always tell students is we're not mind readers. We only can use the information that's on the page and we only want to use the information that's on the page. You as a student get to decide how you're portrayed and what you want us to know about you, how you want us to consider you in the process. So it kind of goes back to your question about comparing students, student A to student B. If the information isn't there, we're not going to look for it or to use it in our process. There's so much other information in an application for us to review.

  [00:11:21] BT: Yeah. It really sounds like what truly counts is what's there and what the student puts of themselves into the application for you all. Speaking of that on that track, students write essays where they get to express their stories, maybe some thoughts and opinions. And so I'm curious, what happens if you as a reviewer read something in an application essay that you might disagree with possibly or something that just doesn't jive with you as an individual? What impact does that have on that person's review?

  [00:11:52] LR: Right. That's such a good question, and it's important to remember that you don't necessarily know who is reading your application. Part of our job is to have some level of objectivity though. So if I read something that I don't necessarily agree with, and it could be as simple as a favorite ice cream flavor, the best sports team, those kinds of things. My job is to take my personal feelings out of it and look at the structure and the context of the essay. We're looking to build an interesting talented and diverse class, and that includes diversity of thought. It’s not my thoughts that count. It’s what is the student going to contribute to a campus community?

  That’s something that we're trained to do. We have some checks and balances in place for that, and only a few times, very, very rare, have I asked a colleague to take a look at an essay that I felt uncomfortable with. If something comes up that really is totally not something I'm able to remain objective on, then that's where we turn to each other and ask someone else to take a look. It’s why I also really like our committee-based approach where there's two people reading the application at the same time. I have a real-time person right there that I can say, “Hey, can you pause what you're doing, and open up this essay, and see if you're reading it the same way that I am?” That helps a lot in maintaining some balance and making sure that we're checking our own biases and checking our own process to make sure that we're giving students the best read and the most benefit of the doubt, the most grace in this process.

  [00:13:41] BW: For an essay or any part of the application really, how customized should the student make their words? Because I imagine you probably see somewhere the student just says, “I’m super interested in applying to your institution.” So it's obvious that they've just made it really generic, and they didn't even take the time to go in and insert Bucknell in the sentence or insert whatever school they're applying to. Does that matter? Does that kind of grate on you to see the super generic applications, or are you really kind of looking past that?

  [00:14:16] LR: Well, sometimes students will put another institution in there as well. Usually, when that happens, we kind of joke, “Oh, I guess so and so is also applying to X university.” We know students are applying other places. They should be applying other places. It’s not best practice to only apply to one college, so we expect some of that. Where it gets a little grating is when you're looking at institution-specific questions. For Bucknell, we ask students to tell us why they're interested in their intended major. When that feels generic, when that feels like a copy-paste, that is a missed opportunity for the student.

  I know how much time students are taking to apply to all of these different schools. We don't know which schools they're applying to or how many. So I know it takes time to write those additional essays, and I don't begrudge a little bit of generic writing in there. But when it's an institution-specific question, you really want to make sure that it is specific to that institution, why that program, what got you interested in that area. If you don't, it's not necessarily going to make or break your application. It’s just a missed chance to tell us something new about yourself.

  [00:15:38] BW: Lauren, when you're applying somewhere, are you kind of at all subject to whether the reader is having a good day or might be like stricter than someone else or? We talk about how schools like Bucknell have real humans reading your application. There's not some type of algorithm but humans are human, right? Is that a concern?

  [00:16:01] LR: I really appreciate you reminding people that it's humans reading the application. We’re people too. We have a really long reading season. It extends from November to March. It’s most days of the week. It’s most of the day. So we're bound to have some off days, it’s just going to happen. But what's more important is that we have more than one person always reviewing the application. It’s never just the one person who looks at it. It’s why we have two people looking at it at the same time. Even beyond that, the application typically gets at least a glance over. If not by senior staff who are making final decisions, then by the person who works with your high school, by your territory manager.

  We have a chance to go back and adjust. We have systems in place and balances in place for quality control. I know our senior staff will do spot checks of applications of the counselors that they supervise just to make sure there's consistency in the reading. I find often at the beginning of the season I'm much more lenient than maybe towards the end because I am just so excited to be reading applications again and to getting to know these students, and we haven't seen the whole application pool. So we have a couple checks throughout the reading season where we do some consistency checks among counselors to make sure that we know what we're looking for, we know how to evaluate information so that there is some science to what we do.

  But having a second person review, having other people double-check your work, having a second person there reading with you is meant to check some of those bad days that people might have. Or there are situations where as a territory manager, I want to read every single application from my territory but maybe I’m out sick one day or a couple days, so somebody else has gone and read my applications. My job is to make sure I go back and look at all of the applicants from my territory to make sure they were read consistently across the board.

  [00:18:12] BT: Yeah. That checks and balances system is definitely comforting, especially knowing after you mentioned some like the hours that you spend reading applications. After so many hours, after so many months, it's challenging I'm sure. But I also imagine that it's pretty inspiring to read about such incredible students, and so what's your favorite part about this job in reviewing applications?

  [00:18:33] LR: Yeah, “inspiring” is such a good word there. I walk away from reading applications just so impressed by things students are doing in high school. Some of the things that students accomplish are phenomenal and outstanding, but even some just the everyday things that students are doing and dealing with just reminds me why we're doing this. I love thinking about where they are and where they might be. We're lucky in our office that we do get to work with a lot of these students after they come to Bucknell as tour guides or ambassadors within our office. So getting to see their growth from reading their application as high school seniors and then even just seeing them as college sophomores, that's really rewarding to see that growth and that continued potential.

  But I always love getting to either read the application first and then meet the student and realize, yes, that is who this person is or vice versa, right? If I've met them already and then get to their application and can hear their voice as I'm going through the application, I feel like I really know them. It truly is an honor to have all of these stories shared with us. It’s a big leap of faith for these students to write their really personal stories to complete strangers or people they've maybe met once or twice. That takes a lot of trust, and I don't take that for granted. And I truly, truly enjoy getting to know them and thinking about where Bucknell could go because of the types of students that are applying and that we're admitting to this institution.

  [00:20:09] BW: That's super cool just to think that you see these students and you can say, “Yup, that was me. I read that application.” Not that you're taking credit for it. But in a way, you can be proud of the work that you've done and that you made the right choice. Speaking of making that choice, let's leave our listeners with kind of your top piece of advice for someone applying. As an application reader, you have this responsibility to look at these applications and make a smart choice. What is the student’s takeaway? What can they do to really impress you and to really make an impact?

  [00:20:48] LR: My top piece of advice in this process, and I think what makes an application full and complete and with lots of information is if students can try to not lose sight of the fact that they still have to complete high school that — there are still a lot of experiences ahead of them between when they start searching for colleges and when they start college, and to not miss that in between. It’s so easy to be consumed with the college search process, with the application process, with where did my friends get in, where am I getting in or not getting in. That it's easy to lose sight of all the things you're experiencing now that are going to push you forward, that are going to put you on a path in college.

  So remembering to continue engaging in those organizations, in those service projects, in those part-time jobs, in those classes and having conversations with your teachers, that is what makes a really cool application, a really thoughtful, a really neat application to read. It’s, again, easier said than done but finish high school.

  [00:22:09] BT: Yeah, I like that advice. Keep learning and keep growing up until even high school graduation. Well, thanks for joining us, Lauren.

  [00:22:18] LR: Thanks for having me.

  [00:22:17] BT: Everything you had to say was super fascinating to get inside the mind of someone who reads all these applications every fall.

  [00:22:24] BW: Yeah, I agree. This has been super useful, and I hope that our listeners feel like I do, that we've kind of taken some of the fog away from that process and talking to one of those real humans behind the other side of the equation.

  [00:22:39] BT: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share with your friends and family, and keep on listening. We’re releasing new episodes every other Monday, and each one is a deep dive into an important element of college admissions.

  [00:22:50] BW: And we'd love to hear from you. Podcast@bucknell.edu is the address if you have ideas for topics you'd like us to discuss in future episodes or if you're a college admissions officer interested in being a guest on a future episode. Again, it's podcast@bucknell.edu.

  [00:23:06] BT: If you're interested in learning more about applying to Bucknell, head to bucknell.edu/apply. That link and all the other relevant links for this episode are in the show notes.

  [00:23:16] BW: Well, thanks again to Lauren. And on behalf of Brooke and I, we want to thank you for listening to College Admissions Insider. We’ll see you next time.