Episode 7: The Role of Parents When Applying to College

Episode 7 Transcript

• Episode 7 Transcript

  BW: Welcome to College Admissions Insider, the podcast where we talk to real college admissions counselors to bring you expert advice for your college search. I'm Bryan Wendell for Bucknell University.

  BT: And I'm Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell University. Our goal is to cut through all the fluff to give you everything you need to start to continue or complete your college search.

  BW: Brooke, we made it to Episode 7 of College Admissions Insider and our first six episodes have kind of included some really fascinating discussions that are aimed at helping high school students get into the college of their dreams, right? That's the whole point why we're doing this. But we know that some of you listening might have finished college a couple of decades ago, and are now parents of high schoolers. Time really flies.

  BT: It does, it does. And so, parents, this episode is for you. We know that behind many successful college students is a passionate parent who helped coach and guide them throughout this application process.

  BW: And we know that you parents have been there every step of the way for your students so far. You've been their coach, their cheerleader, their personal chauffeur, from time to time and so much more. But now that it's time for your student to apply to college, you might not know what role to play, how to help.

  BT: And you don't want to overstep and become that, like, aggressive snowplow parent, or lawn mower parent all those parenting articles kind of warn you against being. But you also don't want to just sit back and do nothing.

  BW: So today we're going to talk about how to walk that line. And joining us is Jill Medina, Bucknell’s senior associate dean of admissions. Jill's been in higher education for more than 25 years, having spent time as an academic advisor, major gifts fundraiser and area coordinator for Residence Life — which means she was living with first year students in college, which I'm sure could be its own entire episode — and has spent 17 years in selective college admissions, having worked in the Office of Admissions at Oberlin College in Ohio before joining Bucknell. And relevant to today's episode, Jill has two children, ages 26 and 24. So, I mean, she can speak on this subject, both as a parent and as an admissions professional. So with that long intro out of the way, Jill, welcome to College Admissions Insider.

  JM: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

  BT: Yeah, we're so excited to have you to lend some insight into the roles that parents can play. And as someone who has been through this process as a parent, what do you remember from your own kids’ kind of college search journey?

  JM: Oh, I remember so many things. Some of them, I wish I could take back, and some of them I will share as helpful pieces of advice for families listening now. So I think one of the things that, you know, hindsight is 2020, right? So you look back and think, “How did I do the things that I did?” One of the things that I remember distinctly is when my son was five, this is my oldest son, who's now 26. I decided because he was an amazing soccer player and he was really smart and imaginative, that he would go on to be a varsity athlete, he would get a PhD in history. But that didn't happen. And I realized that I had engaged in magical thinking at a very young age. And by the time he made it to high school…and if any of you out there are raising high schoolers, you know that the middle school years, you just wonder if you're ever going to make it. But we did. So there are a lot of fun stories along the way.

  BW: Now, throughout the process, once you know high school rolled around and the college application season is looming, how did you keep yourself from being too involved? Because, obviously, every parent wants their kid to be successful and get into the college that they want to get into. But you don't want to do the work for them and, you know, write the essays and everything on their behalf.

  JM: I think that's an excellent point. And one of the things that helped me is having had some years of college admissions experience under my belt, and having interacted with a lot of families as they come into the admissions office, I began to accumulate a list of things not to do. And so part of that was the whole idea of framing. How do I engage in this process in a way that doesn't run it for him? Because I'm really good at managing my children. I was a single parent. I drove them from soccer, to karate to all of their activities. And so, I was the one that managed the schedule.

  My oldest son and I have a really unique relationship in that he was always that mirror that I'm not sure I really wanted at the time. And so when he was starting the college search, he looked at me one day and said, “Since I'm about to do the college search, I just wanted to let you know that I'm not going to be asking you any questions — that I'm going to work with my high school college counselor.” And I looked at him and I said, “Oh, okay, that's a great idea.” And my younger son was sitting there, and he looked at his brother and said, “What do you think mom does for a living?”

  So, I think that was an early cue for me to realize that he was trying to set up some boundaries. And that's one of the things that we have to overcome as parents during the college search process is [that] this is truly an opportunity to begin to allow them to take responsibility and own this process. And that is so important for them to do. And it's hard for us to do as a parent, because we don't want to see them disappointed. We don't want to see them fail. But we absolutely cannot manage this process for them.

  BT: Yeah, it's one of the first big decisions they'll get to make on their own is where to go to college. And I guess speaking of that, that first kind of big step in the process is coming up with a list of schools that a student is interested in or want to apply to. And so, what role of any should a parent play in selecting the schools that their student puts on their initial list of, like, 20 or 10 schools that they want to investigate?

  JM: Brooke, I really liked the way you framed that question about what role should the parent take, because we're used to being nurse, doctor, therapist, teacher, tutor, all these various aspects to our children. I mean, some of us do better than others. I certainly wasn't the perfect parent. I learned by making a lot of mistakes. And after all, that's really how we learn. But it is one of those times that you can sit back and listen to your child, listen to your student and ask them what they're thinking about. So you serve as a guide through a conversation. Parents know their students better than any college. And so for a parent to say, “What are those things that are so important to you, that you can't imagine going to a college that doesn't have them?”

  So if your child or student looks at you and says, “The most important thing in my life is biology, and I have to go to a program where I can study marine biology.” And then if you've never heard of this, you should look at them and say, “All right, well then I suggest you look at schools that offer a marine biology program.” Because sometimes your student will say something to you that you've absolutely never heard before. I've had students declare to their parents in the admissions lobby that, “If I don't go to a school where I can't climb the trees…So I have to climb trees.” And the parent looked at the student and thought, “What are you talking about?” And the student had done research about rules and regulations of the schools and there were some that prohibited tree climbing. So, that student took the schools off their list, and I know that sounds strange.

  Be prepared for some strange answers that you might not be prepared for because your students are talking about these things, sometimes as early as middle school. So they've vetted a lot of this with their friends, but if you ask them open ended questions, you'll begin to hear glimpses of some of the things that may surprise you.

  BT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, nothing wrong with knowing what you want in the school that you want to go to. And in that process, something that can happen is parents think they have, I guess, an idea of what's best for their student in terms of the types of schools that maybe they would like their students to look at and maybe the student just really wants to go to a school where they can climb trees. And so what happens when parents and students kind of disagree on what school should end up on that list or what major to select even? How can they work through those disagreements?

  JM: It's great that you said when that happens, because it absolutely will happen, it will happen. It's not an “if,” it is a “when.”

  I'm going to take you back to spring break of my oldest son's junior year of high school. We were on a three-day road trip out of state, and we went to Indiana, and then on a separate trip we went to Pennsylvania. And my son kept saying, “I don't think I'll apply to schools out of state.” But I didn't listen, and we took the road trips. And we were on our way back from Indiana, and we had visited so many different schools — about two a day for three days, so that's six schools. And as we're leaving the state, I said, “Take a piece of paper out and write down in order your list of favorite schools from favorite to least favorite, and I'll do the same in my mind.” And as we drive, he looks up, and I can see him in the rearview mirror and I said, “So, what do you have?” And he read his list. I didn't say anything, because his top choice school was my bottom choice school for him and vice versa. The school that I thought was the best fit for him was the absolute bottom of his list. And that was a really surprising moment for me.

  So, rather than try to convince him, that the school I thought was the best for him, I asked him to share with me why he liked the school that he did. Because I clearly was not looking for the same things, and I needed to understand what he was looking for. So that was a huge epiphany for me, is that I needed to stop putting my lens on this and give him the opportunity to take the lead. And after that, we did come to terms with…well, I should say I came to terms with the fact that none of the out of state schools that we visited were on his list. Because he did indeed not want to leave the state and only applied to in-state schools. So, your students will tell you. It's really whether or not you're going to listen.

  BW: And how good that you did listen and were willing to listen. I think it would be tempting for parents to believe, “Well, I'm going to be the one writing the check, so I have a pretty big stake in this, financial and otherwise.” So being able to kind of separate that and realizing that what you want isn't always necessarily what your student wants is great advice.

  I also wonder about geography. You talk about out of state schools, and if someone living on the West Coast decides that the best tree climbing school is on the East Coast, but maybe their parents aren't ready to be a country away from their child, how would you help coach that parent to help advise their student?

  JM: When I was looking at college…So in my family, I was the first to go to college on my mom's side, and my dad immigrated from another country, and they ordered me to stay within a day's drive. So that was a longer time ago, and we definitely have different resources. I think that there are certain realities of this process that families will have to have honest discussions about what's feasible. So for my family, the idea of a day's drive was in case of an emergency. So what if they had to come and get me? They wouldn't be able to get me from out of state. We only had one car. In the '80s, in my area, you just didn't go that far. And my family was in the same area, so they didn't want me to go very far.

  I told my kid, that they could go wherever they wanted to, and that I would just make it happen. But I know that there are families for whom that statement does not apply, whether it is a travel distance or affordability. You do have to have some conversations, and honest conversations, about what is realistic for the family. If the family cannot afford air travel, or during a pandemic is uncomfortable about air travel, those are some of the things that you should talk about with your student.

  BW: Just having a real conversation, that makes sense. And a lot of this advice that we've been talking about so far, Jill, seems to kind of assume that the student is really a self-starter, and is going to be making the list that Brooke asked about, and is going to be preparing all these different spreadsheets to analyze the schools and compare the schools. But let's maybe look at the other end of the spectrum at students who are gifted in a lot of ways, but maybe haven't quite become invested in the college search process yet. So, at what point is it time for parent to give that nudge, and say, “We got to get going on this or else you’re going to run out of time.”

  JM: And I think that that's a great framework for a lot of families to start this conversation. And if you have a young high school student, if you have a middle schooler, it isn't too early to even mention college. So you can never be too young to say, “Oh, when you get older and go to college,” because that implants an idea. Even if the parent doesn't have the practical knowledge or the experience themselves, but even the mention will put that into the student's mind that, “Oh, when I get older, I'm going to go to college.”

  There are people in your student schools — college counselors, guidance counselors — and depending on the state, there will be a variety of situations. There are some states that have a ratio of one counselor to 300 students. And so the type of care and quality that you can get does vary from school to school, but we have the internet now. We do have some great resources and each school has a website that will be an entry point for the start of that conversation. So parents who are unfamiliar with an application timeline can go to the internet.

  I always advise parents start in your own backyard, that's the easiest thing to do. You pick the college or university that's closest to you because, worst case scenario, you can go visit there as practice. You can take a 10th grader on a college tour. You can take a ninth grader, you might not contact the admissions office, but it's practice. You're going to feel like you're learning a new language because all of the terms can be very foreign. Some families where college is part of the expectation, they might have a family legacy at an institution — those will be different kinds of conversations. So everything in between. But it's easy to start where you live. And it's a good idea to say to your student in the junior year, “I understand from reading on the internet that now is a good time to visit schools. Are you interested in doing that? Because just next door, we have X school?” And your student may say that, “Yeah, that's a great idea. I'm not sure. I was thinking about another school or I don't know how to do this.” So, I think open ended questions are really good. Unfortunately, neither of my children were…I had to prod them a little bit more than just giving them open ended questions, and as weird as it is, they both kind of did this on their own.

  BT: Which I bet as an admissions professional was a bit difficult being removed from that process probably for you. And as an admissions professional, when you're going through an application and looking at like the essay and some of these other fields that students have to fill out. Can you tell if a parent was a little bit too involved or had too much of a hand in it? And if so, how? And does that hurt her student’s chances of being admitted if you can tell that a parent had helped their child fill up this application?

  JM: That's a really good question. And there are a lot of people that can step in to help. Some families hire consultants to help their student navigate the process if they feel that they need extra support. Some parents and families hire writers to work on this. And some parents will edit and over-edit their student's essay. I think it's really important to understand, at least from the college perspective, that the underpinning of this process is the ability to maintain integrity. Ethics and ethically, it is important that…If, as a parent, you haven't seen the application yet…So a school like Bucknell uses the Common Application or the Coalition Application, and each one of those has a statement of honor indicating that the material is true, and that the student submitted truthful material on their own behalf. I've received numerous phone calls in admissions throughout my career by a family or parent that calls and says, “I was filling out my child's Common Application, and I made a mistake.” And my response is usually, “I hope you don't mean that you were filling out your child's application.” And there will be some stammering and stuttering, and I know that you think that your child needs your help, and they won't do this otherwise, but they really have to do this on their own.

  I think that there are a number of different locations in the application where the student's writing comes into play — short answer questions, supplemental questions. And when there is such a stark difference between writing style and voice, it does call into question the extent to which another person was involved in the essay.

  BW: So, what did you do during those occasions? And also kind of related to that, specifically with the essay, how can a parent help doing an activity that doesn't involve actually writing it for them or hiring a Pulitzer Prize winner to do that writing for them?

  JM: That's a great question. One of the things that is really difficult about the college application process is the personal statement. Students struggle with that because they are thinking, “How am I going to capture who I am in 500 words or less?” And they're still trying to figure that out. They're still choosing activities, and friends, and finding academics that are interesting for them, and how do they stay in touch in school. So one of the things a parent can do…And you can find this, every July the application essays are released on the internet. And what I did with my oldest son was, because he was struggling, and I said, “You know, there are five options. Get five pieces of paper, write the topic or the essay prompts on the top of each one, and then just brainstorm a list. What would I say if I were writing about this question?” Then it really only took him about 10 minutes, and he showed me a piece of paper and he said, “This one because I came up with 10 things that I write about.” I said, “Exactly, keep it simple.”

  Encourage your student to find somebody in their life whose opinion about writing they value. Is it a teacher? Is that a cousin? Is it a neighbor? Is it a babysitter? Is it the parent of a best friend? Somebody who will look at this and help them, because as much as most parents would like to believe that they will be the best editor of their student's essay, that's not necessarily the case.

  And we have asked students to submit different essays. If we have believed that the essay that they submitted was written by someone else, we will ask for an additional writing sample, perhaps a senior year English paper that is graded with a rubric from the teacher, there are writing portions of the SAT or ACT. So, at my previous institution, we would look at those as well.

  BT: Yeah, gotcha. And one of the other really important roles beyond cheerleader and editor that parents play — and my parents played — was kind of this executive secretary role of keeping track of awards and deadlines. And I'm pretty sure that my mom kind of kept all of my graduation gowns and all the cords from middle school, and high school, and college. They’re all neatly organized in their hall closet. And so are there other roles that parents can or should play in terms of helping their students stay organized and keeping track of all of these things? It can be hard sometimes when you're a student kind of living through all of this kind of different awards and things like that to keep track of them.

  JM: Well, and you're a student all the while you're doing this search. So you're a student that has activities, maybe you have a job, maybe you have responsibility for younger siblings, or siblings, or family members, and you're supposed to do this on top of all of that. I really like what you said about an executive assistant role because that would be a great way to think about how a parent can help. One of the things that you recall as a parent is everything that your student did, but sometimes when students are filling out activities or resumes, they forget and think, “Oh, I should only put down school-related things in my application.” And what you want to remind them is that you want them to include the full complement of their activities throughout high school. So that could be employment, it could be community service, it can be church or community activities, or religious or faith-based activities. Anything that the student has done in high school is relevant to be included in this and sometimes you need to remind them.

  Well, I think keeping track of dates and deadlines is something else that, as you get older, you see the calendar in a different way and you can plan ahead. I think one of the things that it was very clear for me when I was doing my kids college search…Did you like how I slipped into that really easily? Well, one of the things that they weren't good at because they had never done it before was plan a trip. So you can't necessarily leave details like hotel or airline to a high school student, if they've never done that before.

  BW: Let's talk about planning trips, actually. I know a lot of schools have kind of changed their visit programs during the pandemic, but eventually they will reopen and some have. And reopen visits and open houses in the future are going to happen again. So, what is the role of parents there other than the chauffeur we talked about earlier? And then what about virtual visits as well? Is there a role that parents can play during those types of visits?

  JM: I think now is the perfect time for parents to let their students know, “Hey, there's little investment, go take as many virtual tours as you want to.” Get into the habit of seeing what schools offer because schools are offering a myriad different activities and programs. Some do interviews, some do them all the time, some do them during various seasons. So there's so much out there. There isn't a standard at each college or university. So encouraging them to do virtual programming right now is a wonderful option.

  When you are able to go…Well, hopefully we're going to be able to go back to visiting schools. That's when there has to be some logistics and travel conversations because of conflicts of schedules and activities. When is the best time? Does your school give you a “excused absence” if you're going to do this? As much as I would like to encourage parents to have their student do a lot of this, I do realize that during the day, the student is at school, and the parent may have the ability to make a phone call to set up an appointment. And by the time the student gets home, the admissions office is closed, so you have to balance that.

  But when you do arrive at the admissions office, if you are visiting, it's important that you let your student come in first. So when you come into the freeze building here on campus, you walk into the foyer and you come down a series of steps to get to the front desk. And I was sitting at the front desk covering for our welcome staff, and parents came in came down the steps before their kids could even hit the door, and my response is always, “And what student do we have here?” Because you don't really want to check in on behalf of your student. They're 16, 17, 18 years old — I think it's important for them to check in for themselves.

  I think if the student has questions that, as a parent, you encourage them to be in touch on their own behalf. They can send emails, they can do phone calls. Some schools like Bucknell track what's called demonstrated interest. So, the more you're able to speak on your own behalf and engage with an admission staff member, the more we get to know you.

  BT: I think it's great having so many different options in terms of engaging with the school virtually as you were talking about it. I know Bucknell is kind of rolling out, we’ve done a virtual tour, kind of a self-guided tour that's on campus where you don't even have to get out of your car, a driving tour…so many different options. And in that process, engaging with the school, if a student or a family has an admissions question, is it better for the student to reach out or can the parent also do so? I mean, you mentioned kind of physically that a tone sets when a parent walks in first. When it comes to reaching out, is it the same? Should students be reaching out instead of parents?

  JM: I think it depends. So there are two parallel processes that happen at this time. The student is applying on their own behalf, and then the parent will be completing financial aid applications. And so, in a sense, you're both doing a similar process, and the parents should definitely ask questions about financial aid. And in my statement, I'm presuming that most parents are involved in this process, and sometimes they're not. Sometimes the student is doing their own financial aid application. So depending on the nature of the question, I think if the parent is involved and can handle the financial aid application and questions, that's fine. And if the student is doing this process completely on their own, then they will obviously be in touch with financial aid offices and with admissions. But phone calls and emails are never a bad thing.

  You can say to your student, do you think that question’s answer might be on the internet? Do you think you can find that out by a phone call? Do you think there's somebody there that would be able to answer your question?

  BW: So there's going to be setbacks in this process. And, you know, this is kind of the negative side of this whole college application processes is that not every student is going to get into every school, right? So, how can parents help their student deal with those setbacks if they get that deny letter, or that waitlist letter, or email letter —however it arrives — from a specific school?

  JM: Yeah, about the time that notification comes out…And some schools actually don't even send letters anymore. Some of it is just a link in your email saying “check the status,” and there will be your notification in email. One of the things that, if a school does send a letter…And I implore parents, do not open your student’s mail. That is just a terrible experience. I've had families call and say, “I just opened the letter and here's the decision.” I'm just shocked that they haven't let the student open their own mail. So parents, please don't open your student’s mail. I think that when the student shares, again, it's one of those things that you try not to manage their feelings. You're going to be hurt when they're hurt. Encourage them to just sit with it.

  One of the easy and quick reactions that students have now is to post it on social media, regardless of the decision, regardless of their feelings about it. So, you'll have feelings of elation in a positive post, and then you'll have students post some things that are horrible about a school that may not have accepted them, or something that's horrible about themselves. Those things live out there on social media forever. I would encourage you to remind them just to take a moment to regroup. What's the plan? There are other letters to come.

  But it's okay just to sit and be disappointed. If the student does want to reach out to the school and ask questions…Something like, “How many applicants did you receive this year?” That will give you a sense of what the scope of the applicant pool looked like, where you might have been with that. You can ask them, if you don't already know, “Where does your GPA fall into comparison to others typically?” For schools that still gather the SAT or ACT, you can ask about what their averages are to see where you align within that.

  So, there are a lot of things you can do but I think it's important to just rest with the decisions and absorb it. There's a saying in college admissions that it works out in the end, and sometimes it works out in ways that you don't imagine.

  BT: Yeah, that's great advice. And eventually, when it does work out in the end, and a student is accepted to a school and arrives on campus…I mean, parents don't just drop their kids off at the dorm room door and say, “See you later,” and check out. Parents are still involved in their student's college journey, whether that's care packages, or…I think I called home so many times with questions like, “How do I write a professional email to my professor?” Things like that. So how do you as a parent continue to support your students in college and how can others?

  JM: One of the things that I did when my oldest son left or was getting ready to leave is, I went into this hyper-vigilant mode of trying to cram all that information that you just mentioned in over the summer before he left. I took him to the bank, taught him how to write a cheque, how to address an envelope. You don't think about these things — how to send a package and all of these things. And in the end, he said, “Can you please stop talking to me? Because I feel like you're trying to do everything at once.” And again, it was one of those moments where I thought I need to just step back.

  There is an essential conversation, I think that you should have, and it revolves around something called FERPA, which is the Family Education Right to Privacy Act. Once your student matriculates to a school, you no longer have access to Powerbook, or Gradebook, or their homework assignment. So right now, a lot of families can log in and see what homework assignments their students are missing, what test scores they got. Once your student matriculates to college, that stops. So the only thing that you'll get is a bill. And I know the balance on that doesn't feel right. So one of the things you'll want to talk to your student about is if they'll sign a FERPA waiver, and will they sign a FERPA waiver allowing you access? So once the student gets there, you won't even see their grades unless they sign a waiver. I think it's important to understand that piece of information.

  I think also to understand and ask your student, “How do you want to communicate? How often do you want to communicate?” Because that can be a real great barometer for…So my sons weren't talkers, but they were texters. So, they texted a lot. When I went to college, there was a payphone in the lobby and you had to call collect or have lots of coins. Then later, you could have phone cards and things have changed so much right now, everybody has a cell phone, or most students have a cell phone, but figure out what is that regular interval of conversation.

  Nowadays, it's not unusual for a student to talk or text their parent multiple times during the day, and that's evolved over time. My son said to me, both of them basically said, “If I need something, I will be in touch.” And when they weren't, I still sent text messages, “Are you okay? Is everything all right?” “Yeah, I'm just busy.” But then when the text message started in rapid fire, I knew something was going on. And so, depending on the nature of your relationship or their student, and how often you communicate now, you'll know if they're needing you or something happens.

  I think it's important also to know what the academic calendar looks like of that school, because that will be a great conversation starter for you. If you see on the calendar…And I put mine on the refrigerator. If you see on the calendar, that registration was due for a particular activity, and you know your child would want to do that activity, you can say, “Were you able to sign up for it? Did you know that this was happening?” Around breaks as well, “How are you getting home? Are you staying on campus? Can you stay on campus?” So, you'll have a great key in front of you of the school's academic calendar that can guide you through some of these other conversations.

  BW: That's such great advice and it kind of walks listeners through the entire journey and in such an interesting way. And I just really want to say thanks, Jill, for joining us on this podcast and bringing all your experiences that you've had and advice to this episode.

  JM: I just wanted to say, I think you both asked some really fantastic questions. Thank you for having me.

  BT: Yeah. It’s so great having you. And to those of you listening, we encourage you to please subscribe, share a podcast with your friends, family, other parents that you know who are in the middle of this process or getting ready to send their kids off to college and keep an eye out for new episodes every other Monday.

  BW: And if you have a topic that you would love us to address on the show, just email podcast@bucknell.edu with your question, or your idea, and we might cover it in a future episode.

  BT: And finally, if you are interested in learning more about applying to Bucknell, you can head over to bucknell.edu/apply, check out the show notes for that link and a link to the transcript for this episode and even more resources.

  BW: All right, that’s it for us. Thanks for listening to College Admissions Insider. I’ll see you next time.