Episode 9: What Is a Liberal Arts Education?

Episode 9 Transcript

• Episode 9 Transcript

  [00:00:06] BW: Welcome to College Admissions Insider, the podcast where we talk to real college admissions counselors to bring you expert advice for your college search. I’m Bryan Wendell from Bucknell University.

  [00:00:16] BT: And I’m Brooke Thames, also from Bucknell University. Our goal is to cut through all the fluff to give you everything you need to start, continue or complete your college search.

  [00:00:24] BW: Now, Brooke, I’m going to confess something. Even though I work for a liberal arts school now, I didn’t even know what that was when I was first looking for colleges as a high school student. I have to think there’s others out there that are like me, students who would really thrive at a liberal arts school, but they just don’t know what they’re missing.

  [00:00:44] BT: Yeah, Bryan, I think you’re totally right. I also had no idea what a liberal arts school was before I attended one myself. Even though students have liberal arts schools on their college search list — which I’m sure they do, there’s so many of them out there — they might not have a full picture of why a liberal arts education specifically is the right choice for them.
  
  [00:01:00] BW: I think in higher ed, some of that is our own fault, our being the communications side. I think we have to do a better job making it clear why and how our liberal arts approach can really prepare a student for a successful career and life.

  [00:01:15] BT: I completely agree. So to help us do that, today we have brought in an expert. Our guest is Kim Councill, Bucknell’s associate dean of faculty in the Division of Arts & Humanities and also a professor of music education. Welcome to the podcast, Kim.

  [00:01:29] KC: Thank you. It’s really a pleasure to be here.

  [00:01:31] BW: Yes, thank you so much, Kim. In the intro, we always say that we're talking to college admissions counselors, but this is the first episode where we have someone who does not fit into that group.

  [00:01:41] KC: I’m flattered.

  [00:01:42] BW: Yes, thank you so much for being here. When we think about liberal arts, it makes sense to talk to someone in your position, and it also qualifies you better than anybody really to answer the most important question that we're going to start with right away. What is a liberal arts education?

  [00:01:59] KC: I think a liberal arts education is many, many things. First of all, it is one of exploration and activity. So students are exposed to a variety of subject matters, hands-on experiences, books, speakers, guest lecturers, artists, events, research, real-world application, travel, people, ideas — many, maybe most of which, are pretty unfamiliar to students upon arrival on campus. I would also say that a liberal arts education provides perspective for a variety of career paths and options. An informed citizen on a broad spectrum of topics is surely better equipped to make decisions that are positively impacting themselves, their community, their environment, and the global socioeconomic and political structures.

  I mean, when we look back at 2020, if that year has taught us anything, I think it has emphasized the importance of depth and flexibility, being able to make changes in career trajectories, really as well as being informed about social justice, environmental issues, medical issues, political topics that are really changing almost daily. A liberal arts education gives you an incredibly rich toolbox of depth and adaptability.

  [00:03:23] BT: Yes, it sounds like it's really a chock full of a bunch of diverse experiences both in the classroom and outside the classroom. Just for the sake of those who might be hearing about liberal arts education for the first time, it might be helpful to also kind of see if what other types of colleges there are out there in comparison. Is there kind of a neat, tidy list of the kind of colleges besides yours that you can give us?

  [00:03:42] KC: Yeah, absolutely. A good Google search of “Carnegie classifications of institution of higher education” will really open up some ideas for you about the types of universities that are out there and colleges. There, you can find that there are a variety of two and four-year colleges, from community colleges to professional and technical schools…obviously, those are the schools that really emphasize a very specific skill that prepares you for a very specific job…to liberal arts schools, of course, to public schools and private research universities. Then, of course, there are the much larger research universities often called R1s. That's where many of our faculty have gotten their PhDs from.

  Many colleges support strong master's programs and doctoral programs — so those graduate-focused programs — in addition to or sometimes with emphasis over undergraduate education. It is really, really important to do your homework on the kind of school that you're looking for and the offerings that best fit your needs and ideals for education.

  [00:04:49] BW: That's really interesting. Now, I want to kind of switch gears here because in your position as an educator, you get to work directly with students, most of whom have already made up their mind that they want to go with the liberal arts route because they're enrolled at Bucknell. In your experience, is there a type of student who is a good fit for a liberal arts education? I realize that question is difficult because of what you've already established, which is that there's a broad range of opportunities at a liberal arts school. But I wonder if we can kind of pinpoint the types of students who might succeed at a place like Bucknell.

  [00:05:22] KC: Yeah. In my experience, especially in this position now where I've stepped out of the music ed world — I think we're going to talk about that maybe a little bit later — and I’m looking at a broader perspective across the college, I really think that the best kind of liberal arts student is a student who is hungry for knowledge, and experience, and exploration. A student who realizes that they don't know what they don't know yet…and I think it would be good for all of us to think about that maybe a little bit…and are really willing and interested in going deeper into those interests, but also are willing to step out of their comfort zones and take on new challenges.

  [00:06:04] BT: By definition, based on kind of what you started with at the top of this episode, liberal arts has a broad focus and prepares graduates for a variety of careers or even graduate school. But what if a student knows with kind of 100% certainty that they want to major in a specific subject — management, or music, or mechanical engineering? Would you still recommend a liberal arts education to that kind of student?

  [00:06:26] KC: Absolutely. As an educator, I have primarily worked with students who are very focused on a specific career path. In my case, it's music education. Often but not always, these are students who come to college with a very, very specific career trajectory in mind. I was that kind of student. I knew without a doubt going into college that I wanted to be a teacher at the end of my four years.

  That said, I am also the mother of a college senior who was the exact opposite of that kind of student. She looked at 25 colleges with us across I think nine states during her high school years, and so we were looking at programs. Her interests ranged from equine science to genetics. Anthropology was also in there. Then she settled on theater.

  Personally, I think a liberal arts education degree college is the perfect fit for both of these kinds of students. I love when my music ed students get the opportunity to explore a variety of subjects. They are going to be in the public schools. The public schools are always changing. They're going to be working with people, and people are varied. So the opportunity to get out and explore a lot of topics and look at the world from a variety of angles is really, really important for them. I know that my students are able to connect easier with their students in the classroom, and their parents, and their administrators because they have a lot to talk about. They have a lot of connections to make.

  Sometimes, there are students who come right in knowing, “Yes, this is what I’m going to do,” and they change their mind, and I think that's great. I've had music ed students who started as mechanical engineers at Bucknell, [were] two years in, and came into music education. And she's actually teaching in Connecticut right now, and she's a total rock star. I have had students who come in from music education, and they knew without a doubt that was what they were going to do. Then another class lit a passion they didn't even know that they had. They didn't know about this topic and they've gone that route. That’s great too.

  [00:08:32] BW: Sometimes that change happens after graduation too because you'll hear all the time people say, “Yeah, well, I majored in this in college but now I’m doing something that, at least on the surface, isn't really related to that major.” But, again, it seems to me like a liberal arts school would prepare you for that because you've had those diverse experiences. You've not just learned facts, but you've learned how to learn, and you've learned how to adapt to the various situations that you face. At least that's my assumption. I'd love to hear what your take is on that.

  [00:09:03] KC: That's a great point. I have a really personal story, I guess a case study, on that. My niece just graduated from a really large four-year public institution. She graduated in December of 2019 and has spent the last year looking for jobs. Her degree is in the social sciences. She is brilliant. She has spreadsheets all over her computer that track the job she's applying for. Granted, it has been an extraordinarily difficult year for the job market, we all know that. I think she's applied somewhere over 200 jobs. I saw her spreadsheet not long ago, and she keeps getting to the final round in many interviews. Then she stops short because the interviewers are looking for research experience.

  On the other hand, my daughter is a senior. She’s getting ready to graduate in May at a liberal arts school. She is actually in the arts and humanities, and she hit the ground running with internships and opportunities and research experiences. In fact, she's part of a research project that is completely outside of her major right now that really has opened her eyes to a variety of other interests.

  With that, because, of course, very realistically it's hard to be a stage manager in the arts in 2021 right now. The world of the arts has been on pause for just a little bit, but it's coming back.
  Because of all of her other experiences at a liberal arts school, she's been able to really change direction. She's been able to investigate a variety of paths. She's got a plan A, and a plan B, and a plan C. I think she might be on a plan J right now, but I think that's the important piece. That’s the difference here in those two experiences in this world where you got to be flexible and you can't just stand for a long time because the world is changing. I really believe that a liberal arts education gives you that skill set to adapt and to not be stuck.

  [00:11:16] BT: Yeah, and I know at least here at Bucknell, most of our courses in pretty much all of our disciplines across our three colleges really prioritize that nimbleness and being able to prepare students to kind of make those quick changes if they happen. Speaking of courses, and classrooms, and those day-to-day experiences that students will have when they’re learning, how may a course at a liberal arts school possibly look different from a similar course at a four-year public school that doesn't necessarily have a liberal arts emphasis?

  [00:11:42] KC: Sure. Class size is the first thing that comes to mind. We really emphasize, especially at Bucknell, small class sizes. We emphasize inclusive teaching practices, hands-on learning, availability of faculty outside of the regular class time, which is crucial, especially as we’ve been adapting again to this new world of education in 2020. Certainly, there are a lot of opportunities for undergraduate research, which goes to when I was just talking about earlier, how important that is. Classes are taught by experts in the field. They are not taught by graduate students who are learning to be experts in the field.

  Another way the classes are very different is that immediate collaboration with colleagues and faculty and staff. You have so much opportunity to learn in groups with your peers, very project-based, often in many classes. B also an opportunity to really go, “Oh, wow. I really jived with what I was hearing in class today, and I'm really interested in that. Can you and I, faculty to student, sit together and have a conversation? Or maybe I can get on your research team?”

  Or there's also that space I think in a small setting where a student is maybe a little bit more comfortable to say, “I have this idea about this thing. Can I research that? Can I do that?” I’ve had lots of students say that to me, “This is an idea.” I’m like, “Yeah, you can turn that into a research project. Let's do a survey. Let's try this.” Then they go, “Oh.” Again, they didn't know what they didn't know. They didn’t know that could be a research opportunity, so I think that is exactly what a liberal arts classroom setting looks like, all of those things.

  [00:13:17] BW: When I think back on my own experiences, I went to a big, public four-year school, and the classes I remember most from there are the ones that had that liberal arts feel to them. They weren’t those 300-person lecture classes. They were the ones with 15, 20 students where I felt comfortable actually speaking up. So I wonder from the other side of that, as an educator, when you're working with those small groups of students, does that process feel more rewarding and more collaborative from your perspective as well?

  [00:13:48] KC: Sure. I did my PhD at an R1 school, and I taught classes that had 35 and 40 music and students in them. That is a very different experience than my experience at Bucknell when I had classes of seven, or eight, or nine students. These for me, personally, are students that I'm getting ready to set out into the world of education. Each one of those students will be responsible for thousands of children. When you’re a music teacher, you get the joy of teaching all the kids in the school or teaching the big choirs and orchestras and bands. I will never see the impact on all the students that they are going to teach, so I want to know that they have a great education. Small class size and the opportunity to really get to know them as human beings is vital. It's vital to my philosophy in my approach to teaching.

  My students have traveled with me from first semester out into the schools. It’s certainly easier to take nine or 10 of them out into the schools than it is to take 35. They are in preschools with me working with real children. They are in the schools observing real teachers working with real children right at the beginning. They’ve traveled with me to tons of conferences. They have gone with me to Australia twice. We have a wonderful research program in the University that we collaborate with there. They've been with me to present their research in Scotland. I know these people as people. I know them.

  This is the same story that I think most of our faculty could say too. That small class size, those conversations in the hallway, those research projects. I love it in the music department when I see science faculty coming to support a student’s recital, a student's concert because they know, “Oh, yeah. This kid is a singer, so I’m going to come to their student recital.” I love, as an associate dean, walking across campus and hearing faculty yell out, “Hi, John. How are you doing?” That’s so great, and that makes such a huge difference in your human experience and certainly in your professional experience.

  [00:16:00] BT: Those bonds that you make with the students that you're teaching, I’m sure, last even far beyond graduation, which is one of the great things about liberal arts and those small class sizes is making those connections with your professors. When you hear back from recent alumni who are out there looking for jobs or even pursuing more studies into graduate school, what do they tell you about the value of the liberal arts education that they got?

  [00:16:20] KC: Well, in my corner of the world, I’m really proud that my students…we have 100% job placement rate, which is pretty remarkable even in COVID last year. If you want to go be a public-school music teacher and you come to Bucknell, that's going to happen for you, and we're going to do everything we can to make that the case. I think those personal connections help, and my students will say that. Again, because of the smaller class size, they're able to be out working with real kids right at the beginning. That's valuable and unique experience.

  Right now, in the marketing of job search, you need as many unique experiences as you can get. My students will tell you that some of their favorite classes were outside of the music department because they got to really, really know other people, other interests. Many of my students have taken classes on early learning in psychology and education. They've taken classes on literacy in the English department. Those, again, are just skills that are so helpful for them.

  I definitely think across the board that our alums will tell you that the professors are the best thing we have at Bucknell and that those professors don't just hand them off at graduation. They continue to write letters. They continue to be interested in their work. They continue to support their work. They continue to invite them back to class. That happens so often, and I think that we are very fortunate that we as faculty form a really strong bond with our students, and that bond continues well into the future past Bucknell time.

  [00:17:54] BW: So much of that that makes a liberal arts school so valuable for a student is about that feeling, and it's things that you can't really put on the paper, on a website, or experience in a college tour. For those listening who have liberal arts schools on their list, how can they first learn more about those schools and the feeling that they might get there, but also begin to compare liberal arts schools against each other, for lack of a better word?

  [00:18:23] KC: Yeah, sure. I mean, there's obvious things that absolutely students should do. They should, of course, connect with admissions. They should visit however they can. Understanding right now that's a very different process certainly than my own daughter did when she graduated in 2017. You should scour the websites. You should attend events however you can. Right now, if you are a student, for example, interested in the arts at Bucknell, there are a lot of arts activities that are open to the public in a way that's been very new. The Weis Center, for example, is doing a lot of remarkable free artistic streaming. Go check that out if you get an opportunity.

  I think it's really important to connect with current students and alums, if you can tap into that resource. Then I think the thing that's the most important and maybe students are the most hesitant about is reaching out to faculty. But our faculty really love to talk to you about what they do, what makes us unique, and then who you are, and what makes you unique, and what your interests are. I think that is a really important and valuable question for a student to ask. What sets you apart? Your program, your research? What sets you apart from another university?

  I have been asked that by tons of students when they have been interviewing and auditioning in the music department, and our faculty have answers to that, and they can tell you that. You're not bothering faculty when you email them. Again, I know that might seem a little intimidating. But, again, our faculty believe in what they're doing. They want to celebrate that story and they're eager to share. So I think that's kind of a little secret thing that you can do that, maybe, not everybody knows to do that or feels comfortable doing that.

  [00:20:12] BW: Can I ask a quick follow-up on that?

  [00:20:15] KC: Sure.

  [00:20:15] BW: If there's a specific department at a specific liberal arts school that a student is interested in, and they go to the page, and they see the faculty and staff of that department, and there's 10 people on there, they don't want to just email all 10. So how would they even choose who to contact with that cold call?

  [00:20:34] KC: A couple of ways. Usually, our website is really good about identifying who the chair of that department is. That's a really good start. You can also click on the faculty, and it'll take you to other information about their research and maybe the classes they're teaching. Click on that, look through, and just go, “Gosh. That sounds like a really cool class. Here, let me send an email and ask about that.” You may even be able to do a little bit of research and find that syllabus, for example, for that class online which is cool.

  Then, of course, our admissions staff is amazing. If you are already connected with an admissions counselor, just say, “I’ve looked at the Department of Religious Studies at Bucknell. I’m really interested in a variety of things. Who would you suggest I contact?” Of course, they would be a great kind of bridge to help negotiate that conversation too.

  [00:21:22] BT: Yeah, what better way to get to know the place that you could possibly spend your next four years than to reach out to the faculty in those areas that you're interested in, especially looking at their specific interest and see if they line up. Ask them, like you said, what sets that program apart. Speaking of that, I mean, we want this podcast to be relevant to any high school student, regardless of whether or not they're considering Bucknell or not. But while we have you here, I do want to ask what makes Bucknell as a whole kind of unique in the spectrum of liberal arts colleges? What does Bucknell offer that, in your mind, really puts it in a different lane?

  [00:21:53] KC: Without a doubt, my first instinct is always to say the faculty, and that is what I love about this job. I loved being in the classroom. I love music education. I love training teachers. But in this job, I get to see all of the amazing work that our faculty do on a day-to-day basis. When I was teaching, my vision was on my students. I’m very focused on the realities of teaching in the classroom as it should be, and so I wasn't aware of all of the amazing things that were happening in the classroom and outside of the classroom — the civic engagement opportunities, the guest artists. I get to see all of that now. Now, I get to run alongside all the faculty and support and cheer.

  Our faculty, they're brilliant. They are experts in their field. They are winning awards. They're publishing amazing books. They're speaking at international conferences. They are brilliant pedagogues. They are brilliant scholars. But beyond that, our faculty are good people, and they are incredibly cognizant and compassionate of the needs of our students. I have seen that 20-fold since March of 2020. I have been blown away by the above and beyond things that our faculty have done to make sure our students are physically and mentally and socially safe and well and then to worry about all the academic pieces of that as well. I am humbled, and I am proud of them. They are amazing, amazing people. That's what makes Bucknell the most special, I think.

  [00:23:34] BW: I think that's a very hopeful and inspiring note to end on. Kim, we want to thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and kind of giving us an education about liberal arts educations.

  [00:23:46] KC: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

  [00:23:48] BT: Thanks to all of you out there who listen to our podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share, so you don't miss an episode. We post new episodes every other Monday.

  [00:23:57] BW: We have some really good ones coming up but we're always looking for ideas for future episodes. Anything you want us to talk about or really dive into, just email podcast@bucknell.edu with a question or an idea, and you might hear it in a future episode.

  [00:24:12] BT: If you're interested in learning more about applying to Bucknell, head over to bucknell.edu/apply. We have put that link and tons more resources below in the show notes.

  [00:24:22] BW: Thanks, everybody, for listening to College Admissions Insider, and we will see you next time.